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New years resolution .
lareli:
"Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell."
Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..
Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"
God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.
Am I understanding this right?
Kat:
--- Quote from: largeli on January 06, 2016, 05:08:41 PM --- "Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell."
Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..
Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"
God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.
Am I understanding this right?
--- End quote ---
Yes largeli, what you said is true, but we know that there are always causes. Yet these causes are virtually always unseen and unknown by us, hence the reason everybody believes they have a 'free' will. It's like I was saying they believe the cause is actually their own desire from within - self determination. Therefore they determine their own fate by the decisions that they make and it could go any number of ways according to what they decide.
I believe to them God is pretty much hands off, unless He decides to miraculously intervene, otherwise the world is going according to what man causes. They certainly do not believe that God created evil and is the ultimately cause of everything that happens, therefore responsible.
We know that we have a will and make the choices that we do, from our own desires, therefore accountable. But the difference is that we know there are always causes and the sovereign God is ultimately controlling these causes. Though our fate is determined, we willingly comply with all these circumstances that are totally out of our control. We understand that it's the will of the sovereign God that directs all these circumstances (indirectly), but the world certainly does not believe this. For them it's self-determination - free will.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: largeli on January 06, 2016, 05:08:41 PM --- "Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell."
Isn't a decision you make YOUR determination though? Isn't this why we will be held accountable but not responsible? Accountable for our will because it is OUR will but not responsible because we didn't choose to be created as spiritually weak 'sinning machines' in the first place..
Ray pointed out that "God doesn't force anyone to sin, we don't need anyone to force us to sin because we're sinning machines!"
God is the cause of me having been created spiritually weak so He is responsible, but He is not forcing me to sin. I willingly sin.. its MY will.
Am I understanding this right?
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't say it as the choices we make are 'our determination.' They are choices determined by temptation and inherent weakness built into us.
He is the potter and we are the clay. You are as powerful as clay in the hand's of a potter. That's as 'determination' in the choices you make that you have. That is the example God gave.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html -------------------------
As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higher powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL. When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will." And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions. But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN. He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T. And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God:
"For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
And so here is the answer to your question:
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
God be with you,
Ray
I would add to ray's thought, "A HEART THAT GOD MADE!"
God bless,
Alex
lareli:
"You are as powerful as clay in the hand's of a potter."
Good stuff you guys.. God Bless.
lareli:
Thinking more on this... We do have a will. Our will isn't forced it's voluntary. No one forces us to do anything (per Ray). So if by free-will one means free from force then yes we do have free-will. Free from force. Which is what I believe that basically everyone in the entire world is referring to when they say "free-will".
I can't say that I ever believed in an un-caused will which is what Ray taught is the real definition of free-will.. Can anyone here say that they ever believed they possessed an un-caused will?
Has anyone ever heard of, or read anything written by anyone arguing that we posses an "un-caused will"?
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