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New years resolution .

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Dave in Tenn:
Largeli, being born has nothing to do with will.  That question will get you the desired answer and not any more illumination that that. Of course most people will say they did not choose to be born. 

It's true that many people who use the term 'free-will' haven't given the term much thought...even some who REALLY believe in the Sovereignty of God.  Another term Ray used that is pretty much equivalent to 'free-will' was 'free moral agency'.  Look those up.

Which brings me to this:  The discussion seems to always center on the LACK of a "Free"-will.  As if we could prove something wondrous by talking about how Santa Clause does not exist. 

Are some MOURNING the loss of something that maybe they still kinda think they once had?  Maybe of something they wish they did have?  At least sometimes?  Maybe some are not mourning, but thankful they no longer have something they still kinda think they once had? 

Just questions. 

rick:

--- Quote from: largeli on January 04, 2016, 05:13:26 PM ---I don't think most of the world believes that they have free will like you guys keep claiming. We here understand that free will means an uncaused will. Ask someone if they have free will and they may say, yes. Ask them if they chose to be born and then ask them if they have an uncaused will and they will say no. I don't know anyone whose ever claimed to have chosen to be born and since everyone will acknowledge that their life was not uncaused then they know that there's no such thing as an uncaused will.

When the majority of the world refers to free will they're not talking about uncaused will they're just talking about will.. Which they do posses. Not only does everyone posses and wield they're own will, but God will hold us accountable for how we use it and how we don't use it too.

You say making a resolution is a sin... For me, personally, staying in the same wretched state because I figure "if God wanted me to stop doing such and such then He would make it so" while not using my will to strive to be a better person.. that's lazy and a cop out and a sin.

--- End quote ---

I think most folks probably don't think much about free will either but perhaps if you ask most people can you do what ever you want, they will probably say yes as long as there financial situation allows it.

But I know the churches I use to go to told me that God sends no one to hell , we send ourselves there.

well that sounds like they are telling me I have free will because its up to me not God. Today I know better, no one comes to Christ unless god calls them to.

with all that I learned here, I sometimes forget and think I have free will because I can not detect God with my five senses so I do feel like I have free will but I understand my will is always subjected to Gods will 24/7'.

If someone were to ask me can I do what ever I want my answer would be I only have the illusion of only thinking I can but not the power or ability to do what ever I want.

God bless.

lareli:

--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on January 04, 2016, 07:15:53 PM ---Largeli, being born has nothing to do with will.  That question will get you the desired answer and not any more illumination that that. Of course most people will say they did not choose to be born. 

--- End quote ---

Being born has nothing to do with will? Maybe I can see what you mean by that statement but we're not just talking about 'will' we're talking about 'uncaused will' and being born is the cause of everything about you/me... and that cause (me being born) had a cause, or many causes... And all those causes had causes... And so on and so forth all the way back to the beginning of creation.

It's all just math. God is the master mathematician. A plus B equals C. Adam and Eve created as spiritually weak humans, plus the serpent, plus the tree, plus the command, equals the fall which causes this and that which causes Cain and Abel.. On and on and on.

Even 'moral agency' our opinions and convictions about wrong and right, good and evil. Again we're not talking about just 'moral agency' but 'uncaused moral agency'. Being born is the cause which began our moral agency. Not just being born but being born male as opposed to being born female.. These two causes (being born and being born male as opposed to female) how much have these two factors have had on our moral agency (or our life perspective and experience at least) and neither of these factors did we choose or will.. nor were these factors uncaused, and I don't think anyone in the world would disagree.

I didn't choose to be born.. Not only did I not will myself to be born but I didn't will myself to be born as a male as opposed to female.. Not only did I not choose being born male but I didn't choose to be born to the biological parents that I was born to.. I did not choose for my folks to divorce when I was 3.. I didn't choose to be born at this time in history as opposed to being born 500 years ago. I didn't choose to be born in California in the US of A as opposed to being born in Egypt or China... How different my will or moral agency would be had I been born the son of a slave owner in the south as opposed to having been born as a slave. Or if Hitler was born as a Jew instead of a German...

All these things are the causes for our will or moral agency and we have no control over these things so no there is no 'uncaused will' or 'uncaused moral agency' and I must admit that I haven't taken a poll or sat down and talked with many folks about what 'free will' means to them but I highly doubt as many people as you guys (no one in particular) make it out to be would argue that they or anyone has ever possessed an 'uncaused will'...

Maybe the important thing I think is that for us we know God is the ultimate cause of all while some may not believe in a God at all.. Even so atheists wouldn't even argue in favor of an uncaused will. They would just argue that the ultimate cause isn't a God.

Around here we understand free will to mean uncaused will but out there free will usually just means will, which we do posses and we'll be held accountable... So I'd say if you've made a New Years resolution to better yourself than good for you! If I say I'm gonna try to take the stairs more often instead of the elevator, or I'm gonna try to spend less time watching tv, or I'm gonna try to better my situation or whatever.. I disagree that that's a waste of time or a sin. Perhaps the opposite is true. Shouldn't we resolve or will to be better versions of ourselves daily?

Joel:
There are a multitude of references to vows, oaths, and pledges that are recorded in the scriptures.
I find it interesting that Wikipedia says this under new years resolutions; "The Romans began each new year by making promises to the god Janus, for whom the month of January is named."

Joel

Kat:
Hi largeli,

To me being born is the gift of existence, so is the personality we have, these are the fundamental means, certainly not determined by us, that starts us on the course of our lives.  It's impossible for a person to have a will for anything before they exist... to live and have consciousness, who our parents will be, where you will live and in what century are all factors that are brought about for us to have life in this incredible creation. These things are beyond our control and even knowledge and our will has not even come into play at that time, that only starts after we are born.

But from the moment of our birth our will does have a factor in all decisions/choices we make. A baby is caused to cry by something, hunger or some discomfort... and all through our lives all these unseen causes create circumstances that make us choose as we do - God's sovereignty. Since we have studied this quite a bit from the articles on BT and here, it becomes hard for us to comprehend otherwise. But that is not the case with the world in general,that most of the causes are totally unrealized and because no apparent cause that can be detected, this is why I feel most people readily believe that they do have a 'free' will.

Certainly most people have not sat down and meditated on this or given it any thought at all, it's just natural to assume that we are self determined individuals and not predetermined to be what we are by God's sovereignty. That a decision you make is YOUR determination, to them God's sovereignty does not go that far, because you actually deside and that is what the whole church believe and teach. The church's whole premise is that God does not assign anybody to hell... they must by their own free will choice, choose Christ and salvation or they will by default be sent to hell.

Here is just one of the religious site's comments on their position on free will that I got from the internet, most churches believe pretty much the same thing as far as I can tell--


God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will. I really like the truth of this Bible teaching.

The belief that God controls everything that happens to us is one of the devil's biggest inroads into our lives. If this belief is true, then our actions are irrelevant, and our efforts are meaningless. What will be will be.

If=It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.

People virtually have to climb over the roadblocks that God puts in their way to continue on their course to hell. The cross of Christ and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit are obstacles that every sinner encounters. No one will ever stand before God and be able to fault Him for withholding the opportunity to be saved. The Lord woos every person to Him, but we have to cooperate. Ultimately, the Lord simply enforces the consequences of people's own choices.
-------------------------------------------------

My point is that most do believe that they have a free will, even if they have never contemplated it, because it is a natural assumption to think our own decisions are what determines our fate in life. Religious people will tell you they believe in the sovereignty of God, but turn right around and say people choose to go to hell. It's their being blind to the truth and the whole world is full of deception and confusion and that's just the way it is for now.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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