Had a chance

[virginiabm]

Hi my brothers and Sisters,
   I had a chance to share some of Ray's articles with some of my family at their Saturday bible study.
my daughter is seeking answers, she says their group is open minded, so they let me share some of what I believe.
We got off to a good start, but it soon turned into a battle of witts between me and a friend of my daughters. She blow me away when she said that she did not believe that Jesus died for our sins, but he just came to teach us that we can keep the Law right. So I ask her point blank did she believe Christ died for her sins and she said no. I liked to have fell off my chair, because this woman used to believe that Jesus died for our sins. She said that the old testament did not agree with the new testament about Jesus coming to save the world from their sins through His sacrifice on the tree. I gave her Isa. 53 and psalms 22 to prove that there was two witnesses in the old testament proving that Jesus is the saviour of the world and He came to die for our sins.
I'm not sure whether she had a change of heart or not, she didn't say, but they are going to study Ray's articles, because they were interested in some of the things he conveys in his writtings.
  Please pray that God will shine His Light on them, especially my Daughter Saprina. I want all to come to an understand and I know they will in God's time, but I would love for my Saprina to undestand now, If it be God's will of course.
I just thought I would share this with you all, by the way this is the second time I have been able to share with them ray's teaching of God's word. The first time wasn't so dramatic. They really enjoyed it.

    Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
    Virginia Miller

[arion]

She said that the old testament did not agree with the new testament about Jesus coming to save the world from their sins through His sacrifice on the tree.

So basically she believes in contradictions.  But, that is what all the churches teach and it's one of the reasons why their are so many Christian denominations in the world. 


So I ask her point blank did she believe Christ died for her sins and she said no.

The churches even do her one better as Ray has taught.  They believe that he died....not that he was dead!


All you can do Virginia is plant the seed of course and God determines whether or not it takes hold and grows.  First time I came across any of Ray's teachings I thought him to be a heretic.  It took a few years for God to bring me around and show me some of his truths. 

[Extol]

There is also a lot more than the two Scriptures you gave. I think we have shadows of salvation in stories, in the Law, in the poetic writings...Here is a powerful Old Testament shadow of salvation:

(From Ray's Lake of Fire 4)

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html


THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL

There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.

The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n  6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485.  There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.

Here are just two examples:  The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually].  For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7).  And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying:  "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]."  It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.

In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:

    THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).
     
    COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.

    THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
     
    COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
     
    In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
     
    Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

    THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).
     
    "Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that's just about EVERYONE, wouldn't you say?]. Seven days [here's that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God's grand plan of salvation?
     
    "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God's salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God's Word will show us.

JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST

The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:

    "In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God's SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:

    "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).

    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).

And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don't be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.

So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:

    "THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).

First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God's Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

    "And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God's master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God's family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven't heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!

That's right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God's Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?

[virginiabm]

That you Arion and Exto for the encouragement. I did tell them that the three feast of Israel is the plan of Salvation for all. Saprina told me any time I wanted to have bible study with them to let her know which one and she would print it off from the computer at work. I am thankful God has given me the oppotunity to share this with my daughter, I know she believes in the sacrifice that our saviour went through for our sins. Both of them got the webpage and they said they would read some of what is on there.
  My daughter has three children and she works, so her time is limited to a little here and there.
  thanks again for the replies. Please keep us in your prayers.

            Your Sister in Christ,
              Virginia Miller

[Kat]

Hi Virginia,

Well you never know if God may be opening somebodies eyes or not, so if somebody is open to hearing what you believe, then I say give it a go. I had mentioned some things to my sister on a couple of occasions and she thought it all sounded great, but the last conversation we had did not go well. She was strongly opposed to what I was saying, which was not much different from what I had been saying before, so I just dropped it right there. I can only suppose she went to somebody in her church to discuss what I had been telling her and she probably got an earful about letting somebody lead her astray from what her church believed.

So thread carefully when dealing with those who are in mainstream Christendom. I don't think most in the churches really understand what they believe, they just agree with whatever the church says, blindly following. So if they happen to go to somebody in their church, they will quickly say the things you are saying are false and strongly encourage against listening to what you are saying.

Now my daughter used to live near me and we had many occasions to talk about these things and she was always in agreement, she was raised in a church, but has not attended one as an adult. But she never read anything on her own, and she doesn't live near me now and we don't get to talk so much. But I think she still agrees with what I had discussed, but is not actively seeking. So I'm glad I was able to share the things with her that I did.

Anyway it is good to share these truths with somebody interested, but I think it is also important to know when to back away if and when they begin to resist. If the Spirit is truly working in somebody they will not be able to rest until they learn more about this truth. I am praying for you to see God's will in this situation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[virginiabm]

Thank you Kat for the advise and I will take heed to it.  I believe Saprina is interested, I think she had  a hard time with what her friend said as well, but I know it is all up to The Father's will. I told them not to just skim over these articles, to read them through, they said they would. That's about all I can do.I did tell them that I was no teacher and I couldn't put into words how I believe, but ray is good at putting the scripture together the way I can understand it and i know this is only from God. Thank you for keeping us in your prayers. May God be with.
     
     Your Sister in Christ,
   
         Virginia Miller

[Dennis Vogel]

Kind of like nailing Jello to the wall. There comes a point when:

Mat 7:6  Do not give what is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine,—lest once they trample, them, down with their feet, and, turning, tear, you.

You'll have to decide when that line is crossed.

[virginiabm]

thank you dennis for the scripture, I don't want to do that by no means. I have thought about this and I do believe Saprina my daughter is for real, whether she agrees with what i believe or not, she is seeking the truth, I don't know if it is Gods will for her at this time or not, we shall see.  I do know this thou, i want keep attending If her friend continues to believe that Jesus didn't die for our sins, that is calling our Father and Our Savior a liar. I want be apart of that anymore. She caught me off guard, because the last time I met with them she believed in Jesus and Him dying for our sins.
   
Maybe the scriptures that was given will shed some light on her heart, I hope so.

    Thanks again Dennis.

Your Sister in Christ,
  Virginia

[Dennis Vogel]

One of my sons is slowly coming around and starting to understand. It's taken several years.

You planted the seed and now just wait for her to ask some more. Like all of us, it takes years.

1Pe 3:15  But, the Lord Christ, hallow ye in your hearts, ready always for a defence, unto every one that is asking you a reason concerning, the hope within you,—nevertheless, with meekness and reverence:

[Joel]

Hi Virginia,
Your daughter's friend made the statement that "Jesus came to teach us that we can keep the law right." Reminds me of a large group that I came into contact with some 30 years ago.
Their main leader was a great orator with a law degree, they were heavy into the law, in both Testaments.
Their views were very convincing, but someone rooted and grounded in the Truth would not be deceived by them.
Their leader has been dead for some time, I think there are groups still around today, mainly in the Des Moines Iowa area.
Romans 5:8-But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ist Timothy 1:15-This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1st John 3:5-And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Galatians 5:4-Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:8-If ye fufil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Joel

[virginiabm]

Hi Joel, thank you for those scriptures, I truly believe christ died for our sins. I don't know where this woman is coming from, she use to be a believer in Christ sacrifice, but she has gone so far as to say that the New Testament in not in effect, which I have heard that before. I believe we are living in the New testament times.
This woman's name is Mary by the way. I should not keep calling her woman I guess. Mary also said that she believes that Adam was Satan in the garden. I have heard that before to, but I don't believe it. I am worried that Saprina might be swayed by her so called knowledge, my daughter says mary is a deep thinker and she studies the deep things of the bible. 
  I told her there had to be a blood sacrifice to cover our sins, bull and goats could never cover them, but she came back with they did not always use blood sacrifices in the old testament. I could not get into it to much with her be cause that was not the reason I was there in the first place.
Any way Mary came up with some stuff that i have heard before and studied out and I don't Believe, maybe she will come to her senses before to long. By the way they are not in a chuch building, nor do they attend any church group. They have bible studies in their homes.
She believes this about Satan because of Gen.3:14 where God cursed him and said that he would crawl on his belly and eat dust the rest of his life. Like he was on his feet before he had to grawl sort of thing. To tell the truth I have wondered about that before, if now he has to crawl, then did he ever stand upright on his feet? I guess this can be confusing to say the least, as I said I have wondered, but not about Adam, but about Satan. May God bless you Joel.

   Your Sister in Christ,
     virginia Miller

[Kat]

Hi Virginiabm,

Not sure where Mary is coming from on not believing Christ died for our sins, but she seems to be confused about a lot of things. I think she may be saying Adam was Satan, because clearly it was not a talking snake that tempted Eve. But what she doesn't realize is that there were other people living at that time, not just Adam.

Another thing is that the curse put on Satan is a figure of speech, it did not mean he would literally crawl where he once walked upright, but imo he was on his belly meant he was the most lowly of all creatures on earth. Anyway at least she is thinking out of the box/church on these things. But she can never find truth on her on no matter how much she studies the Scripture... so many through all the centuries have spent much of their lives devoted to studying God's word and have come to no better conclusions than she did. Truth only comes when the Spirit reveals it...


John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Well Virginia,

The serpent on his belly is no more indicative of his literal condition as adam and eve having their eyes opened after they ate of the fruit indicates their ability to see. They weren't literally walking around the garden with their eyes closed, stumbling onto things and falling over, and then suddenly ate the fruit and after walked with their eyes literally open. The same could be said for the serpent. He wasn't literally walking on his feet and then now was literally crawling on his belly. This has more to do with the nature of snakes in general.

Satan is called a serpent because he is wise and knows how to deceive. Do you remember when Jesus said you are to wise as serpents but harmless as doves? Serpents are WISE and satan uses that to deceive and tempt man.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Mary may deny that the serpent is satan but we have scriptural proof he is;

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan is referred to as the tempter.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus is saying to him, "Go away, Satan, for it is written,

So then who was it that deceived eve?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent decieved Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I don't see how ADAM could possibly be that old serpent, called the devil, satan, which DECEIVES the WHOLE WORLD. It seems to me like this very same serpent has Mary caught in his trap.

God bless,
Alex

[virginiabm]

I thought the same thing Alex. I am glad you and Kat gave me a better understanding about Satan  and the curse God put on him. I didn't think he was Adam, but I was stumped about how he could be one way and then another. Just my overthinking things again. Thanks for the imput, I sure needed it.

        God bless you both

[octoberose]

It's exciting when we can share God's Truths and there may be a receptive heart receiving it. I'll be praying for your Saprina (beautiful name, by the way). What a curious thing for her friend to believe but its so easy to refute it - it makes everything else she says suspect even to the ears  of most Christians.