> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Kat:
There are many Scripture that speaks of what happens in this age and it is certain that nobody will escape death, which Michael shows many Scripture that says so. Paul says that the few elect will be "changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:51, 52). Yes this is only the elect that will be "changed" and have glorious spiritual bodies and go to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess 4:17).
But when it comes to all the people that will be living on earth when the next age heralds in, we do not see Scripture that speaks of anything happening to them. Here is a passage in Revelation that speaks directly to the beginning of the next age, the elect are already resurrected "new Jerusalem" descending to earth with Christ announces to the people on earth that He is returning to live with them on earth. That passage says "there shall be no more death" and nothing of all the unconverted people being killed or dying, nor does any other Scripture I know of.
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Now there are certainly Scripture that speaks of destruction and desolation when Christ returns, but we know that is spiritual/second death in the Lake of fire judgment that destroys carnality. That is the great white throne judgment which begins as soon as Christ returns.
Isa 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt,
v. 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
v. 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ---------------
[2] Matt. 10:28 & Luke 12:5
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].
"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [Gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Luke's account is the same as Matthew's, however, it is a shorter version. From Matthew we learn that God is "able to destroy" our very soul in Gehenna. But that is not a wicked thing, but a good thing. It is a good thing to loose (apollumi-destroy) our carnal soul for God's sake, and this destruction of the soul for God takes place in Gehenne. See Matt. 10:39 losing (destroying, "mortifying the deeds of the body" Rom. 8:13) takes place in spiritual Gehenna, Verse 28.
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And what is the solution to bridling the tongue (which speaks for and in behalf of the deceitful "heart")? Why to "fight fire with fire." Set the tongue on fire with Gehenna fire-Gehenna JUDGMENT! (Verse 6). Right there is the solution to the whole enigma of what is Gehenna fire; what is eonian [falsely called everlasting] fire; and what is the LAKE of fire.
Gehenna fire is first and foremost for Christ's disciples (the Elect), and is first taught by Jesus on the sermon on the mount to His disciples. It is therefore not literal fire, nor is it everlasting fire. "Gehenna fire" (Matt. 18:9 is also called "eonian [NOT 'everlasting'] fire" in Matt. 18:8, and also in Matt. 25:41 where this eonian fire prepared for the devil and his ministers will be judged in the resurrection to Judgment in "The Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:15 & 21:08). The Gehenna fire, eonian fire, lake of fire, are all the Judgment of God. These fires are all the same ONE fire that come from the same ONE God, and "Our [One] God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
And so Gehenna fire has nothing to do with eternal torture, but rather with eonian chastisement and Judgment-for the House of God's elect, now, and for those who obey not the Gospel of God, in the Judgment of Gehenna/lake of fire, later.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Jeff:
Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
Mike Gagne:
Hi Jeff
--- Quote from: Jeff on March 08, 2016, 10:17:00 PM ---Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
--- End quote ---
I Think for the elect it will only be in this life which is pretty short...
Zechariah 13:8-9 (KJV)
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Matthew 24:22 (KJV)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Righteousness, Peace, and Joy
rick:
--- Quote from: Jeff on March 08, 2016, 10:17:00 PM ---Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
--- End quote ---
Hi Jeff,
I am fully convince no man need know everything about God excerpt one thing God is good and our carnal minds must be destroyed, and who wouldn't want that ? I can't wait to think like God be like God and I don't care how much I suffer to get there.
As you say sixsth seventy years of torture, if that's what it takes I'll do it in a heart beat just so I don't have to be me anymore.
God bless all.
Kat:
--- Quote from: Jeff on March 08, 2016, 10:17:00 PM ---Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?
I suppose it could be a short age.
After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.
--- End quote ---
Jeff, if you are speaking of the judgment on the world in the next age, it is clear that God is a just and fair and will chasten everybody individually according to how they lived. If a person has good works they will even be rewarded.
1Cor 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
So it's not just going to be eon of horrors at all... if you think about it all of the patriarchs and prophets will be raised physical in the next age, even John the Baptist. They have already proven their faith and obedience in God and certainly will not be tormented in judgment, they just need to know the gospel message of Christ Jesus. And there will be lots of babies and children resurrected in the next age as well, they certainly will not need harsh correction either... but the opposite extreme is there will be those that are reprobates that will only understand a very strong arm of correction. All "will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9), it will just require a great variance of how God will bring that about.
Here is a place Ray had spoke on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ----------------
"The Judgment of God" are scary words for most people. Partly this is due to the Church portraying Judgment as a horrible and fearful thing involving sentencing many to an eternity of insane torture by fire. We will now take a Scriptural look at the doctrine of Gehenna Fire Judgment.
God is presented as the Great Judge over His creation from early Scripture. The first time the word "judge" is found in Scripture:
"...shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen. 18:25).
Actually this phrase is: "shall not the Judge of all the earth do justice."
"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").
NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.
The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."
It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:
"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).
Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.
Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):
"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."
What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."
Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).
Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.
Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:08). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.
"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08).
Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.
Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.
To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change.
"When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
When the wicked are left to their own devices, they will NOT learn righteousness, but when God's just judgments are added to the mix, and Jesus judges in righteousness, they cannot but "learn righteousness." Why won't the Church teach these marvelous truths? Well, of course it can't, seeing it is deceived.
God's judgments and the knowledge of His plan and purpose for humanity has reached precious few in the past, but it is prophesied to cover the earth:
"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9).
And:
"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Habakkuk 2:14).
It is an easy thing to turn men (and women) into beasts and heartless criminals. Torturing them or annihilating them would likewise be an easy thing for God to do. But turning vile and demented criminals like Hitler, Saddam, or Charles Manson into godly saints, now that's an accomplishment.
Of course most Christians and theologians and pastors do not believe that God is up to a task this great. Just wait. If God can spiritually transform a criminal like the Pharisee Saul, into the loving Apostle Paul, Saddam and the boys will not challenge God's ability to convince them of their great need of repentance.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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