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Author Topic: 1 Cor 15:51  (Read 7853 times)

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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2016, 11:01:42 AM »

Hi Porter,

No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!


Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter


Michael

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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2016, 01:09:36 PM »

 But I see I am still having problem with all this 

Here is a couple quotes from lake of fires series Part 16 hades and second death,

Quote
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6   (KJV)

6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

 And then these verse's  which states what is the second death

Revelation 20:14   (KJV)

14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8   (KJV)

8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing  I am over looking?

thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote

Quote
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter



Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem.  HELP!!  Please.

Michael
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Wittenberg

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2016, 02:30:06 PM »

Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
 
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2016, 02:51:27 PM »


Now couple scriptures that state the elect will not be harmed by the second death and that the second death is the lake of fire. So do they really go into the second death if it has no power over them?

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6   (KJV)

6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

 And then these verse's  which states what is the second death

Revelation 20:14   (KJV)

14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8   (KJV)

8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can anyone see a problem with that? Or is it just some thing  I am over looking?

thats why I posted this comment I thought this was right, heres my quote

Quote
Well I know the feeling. Today it just came to me. There is only two deaths and the physical death has nothing to do with it and the blinders came off!! I reedited my last post. I was having trouble with all that. Thanks for your honesty Porter



Ok I still need others input on this, because I see problem.  HELP!!  Please.

Michael

Michael, in the article Ray was explaining how the elect "die once" and then they are under judgment according to this Scripture.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

For the elect they "die once" in being spiritually baptized into Jesus, symbolically being buried in the baptism water and raised out of that in "newness of life" - spiritual life, the Holy Spirit indwelling. This is not a ritual in a church, but it happens in the life of every elect.

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So then after this spiritual baptism happens to a believer, then they are going through "after this the judgment," that is the 'second death' for them that happens in this life, in this age.

1Cor 15:31  I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Rom 8:36  As it is written, "For Your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

Now for the rest of the world the order in the Hebrew's verse is more obvious. They die once a physical death as all in this age must, then when they are raised up in the next age they will enter the great white throne judgment - lake of fire - second death.

All the Scripture that you posted is of the next age, the age of judgment for the world, their "second death" of which the elect will not need further judgment at that time. No, the "second death" of the next age will have no power over the elect, because they will already have been raised and perfected in the first resurrection... the elect actually are the lake of fire, they are those that will judge the world under Christ. 

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
v. 5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
v. 6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?

Remember these Scripture.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8  blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

Once the Holy Spirit is indwelling, Christ is directing our lives and they're then under the atoning sacrifice of Christ and all sin past, present and future are forgiven. Now though we still sin for as long as we are in this flesh body, those sins are used as teaching lessons for correction/chastisement by the Spirit. But the chosen few have "no condemnation" and that's how they are "set free from sin."

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

2Cor 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
v. 18  All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
v. 19  that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Rom 6:22  But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 04:34:54 PM by Kat »
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Wittenberg

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2016, 06:09:34 PM »

Kat, I obviously agree with those scripture. Yet I have never met someone that doesn't sin. I believe someday I won't sin anymore while having a physical body. I don't know what needs to happen that enables me to not sin after my earthly death. I always assumed that my sinful nature won't exist after resurrection, but I don't know if that's scriptural.  If you have a reference on that, that would be great.

Thanks

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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2016, 07:32:33 PM »


Hi Wittenburg, when a person is actually born into the kingdom at the first resurrection, they will receive a glorious spiritual body, immortal and imperishable. They will then be "like Christ" (1John 3:2) and will raise up to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Th_4:17).

1Cor 15:53  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
v. 54  When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

For now the elect are only begotten, having an earnest/promise of His Spirit,

2Cor 1:21  Now he that establisheth us with you in Christ, and anointed us, is God;
v. 22  who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.   

Eph 1:13  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (that's talking about the elect), to the praise of His glory.

Rom 6:22  But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting (eonian) life.
v. 23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal (eonian) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those Scripture should show you that the elect are given the Holy Spirit now as a promise for what is to come, eonian/age-enduring Life, in perfect unity with God. Those that join with God in the first resurrection will be perfected as He is, they will not be in the flesh and not subject to sin.

John 17:20  "I do not pray for these (the disciples) alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
v. 21  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

It all begins when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, but that is just the beginning the believer must "endure to the end" of this life, never losing hope and remaining faithful then will be in the first resurrection.

Matt 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

1Cor 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible (G862), and we shall be changed.

G862
aphthartos - undecaying (in essence or continuance): - not (in-, un-) corruptible, immortal.

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible (G862) and undefiled (G283) and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

G283
amiantos - unsoiled, that is, (figuratively) pure: - undefiled.

So it is a process, those that are elect were always meant to be so, all their lives they are being prepared, and ends when a person is united/joined with Christ and becomes one with God, perfected, at the first resurrection.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
v. 4  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
v. 5  having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 08:59:54 PM by Kat »
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2016, 01:43:59 AM »

Hi Kat,

LRays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
End of quote

THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH ( if man is appointed once to die , how can he die twice? And if so Shouldn’t  the writer of Hebrews said it is appointed on to man to die twice, once in his first death and once in his second death ? ) OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
Is he stating we die twice?  And if so how can that be? The scripture says man is appointed once to die.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment:
 The next verse seems to agree with this verse,
Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ( meaning everyone ).  and unto them ( them who died once ) that look for him shall he ( he that died once ) appear the second time without sin unto salvation. ( No second death )

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ( are appointed death through baptism )
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,( thats how we die our appointed death, thought baptism ) that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ( No second death )

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, ( your appointed death ) and your life is hid with Christ in God.

How can you die twice, I can not find it the scriptures!

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment:

LRays quote
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.



There are the only four scriptures that have the second death mentioned
These two scriptures are both witness’s two that fact that the second death will not hurt and will have no power over the elect!
Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh ( those who died in the first death they were appointed to,  ) shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection : upon these,( those who died in the first death they were appointed to,) the second death, hath no authority; but they shall be priest of God and Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So how can they be apart of the second death?

And these two tell us what the second death is

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment:  DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?

How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?

The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment

I do not see two deaths in that statement!  No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths?  Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?

Isa 26:9   for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

What is judgement ?



This is what LRay said Judging was, heres his quote,

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32)   "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12)   "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!

"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!

End of quote

For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death

I do not see any death in that statement! No I see judgement that leads to Life

I wonder why Paul never said it is appointed to man to die many, many deaths?

1Co 15:31  I face death every day. That is true, brothers and sisters, just as it is true that I am proud of what you are because of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Fire does not bring death

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1 Peter 1:6   (KJV)

7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:



Michael
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:44:33 AM by Michael G »
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2016, 10:46:44 AM »


Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment:  DOES JUDGEMENT BRING DEATH?

How can Judgement be the second death death, if you are only appointed to die once, Or for that matter the first death?

The order in that scriptures is ( #1) to die once, ( #2 ) after this judgment

I do not see two deaths in that statement!  No I see one death and one judgement onto salvation which is Life In Christ Jesus. No second death. For the life of me I can not see how judgement brings death. Do the scriptures say that you are to die two deaths?  Or is it when the first time death comes, it comes to the elect and the second time death comes, it comes to the many and death and hell?

Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.

Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Col 3:5  Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

That putting to death our carnality is the second death judgment on the elect now, it is dying to self, a process that goes on the rest of our physical lives, as Paul said "I die daily" (1Cor 15:31), this is our judging ourselves.

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves (now in this life), we would not be judged (in the next age with the rest of the world's second death).
v. 32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Christ explained this judging (second death) of ourselves, as symbolically cutting off or plucking out those things or the carnality we have.

Mat 18:8  "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting (eonian) fire.
v. 9  And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell (gehenna) fire.

All the times the scripture mention the "second death" it is speaking of the world's judgment in the next age, it never implies the term to the elect, we surmise it. Remember there are many mysteries in the Scripture, lots of things are not spoken out right, we have to look for the meaning of these things through putting many Scripture together.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 01:15:36 PM by Kat »
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jingle52

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2016, 04:25:39 PM »

Thank you Kat, you always point us in the right direction  :) Enjoyed this thread.

Jingle
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Mike Gagne

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2016, 07:57:48 PM »

Hi Kat 

I still do not agree with your quote

your quote
Michael, you understand that the elect die once in being baptized into Christ... their second death IS their judgment in this life. As Ray stated "THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH," so the judgment the the elect are going through in this life means the same thing as their second death.
         End of quote
And here is Lrays quote
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
           End of quote


Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As LRay said it was already in her heart

Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death;

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Thats it, the law of sin and death. Thats the death you are appointed to die to once. I have shown you in other scriptures and here is a few more,

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

In my previous post # 86  there is one death and one life!  And same as above.

There is no second death for man, he is only appointed once to die.

So whats the second death,

Here is the ONLY four scriptures that mention the second death i will continue in next post.

Michael
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2016, 08:02:56 PM »

continued from last post.

Here are the ONLY four scriptures on the second death, but in order for me to show you what I believe is the second death ,we first have to look at all the scriptures containing
 resurrection or the first resurrection. There are 40 verses found with the word resurrection in them and only two of them mention the first resurrection. And one suggest a resurrection on to life and judgement. lets see what it says

Joh 5:29  and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

When his righteous judgement are in the earth ( they don’t lead to death, but to life ) the inhabitants will learn righteousness.

These mention the first resurrection
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no mention of a second resurrection through out the whole bible. Even though there are many resurrections they will all be the first resurrection. Now back to the second death



Four scriptures on the second death and I added one scripture with them Rev: 20-5  And should we also remember, Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:



Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and  only resurrection )
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection,  and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) )  on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.

Death and hell are brought before judgement in the lake of fire ( Jesus and his elect are the lake of fire ) and judgement leads to life.

Lrays quote
THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

 There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH

Can you see it?

2Ti 4:16  At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:

In Christ Michael
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 10:09:12 PM by Michael G »
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2016, 11:21:20 PM »


Michael, let me see if I can explain this again.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

This once to die is speaking of the physical/literal death that every person in this age must happen to. Now I see where we are not seeing it the same way, that is the understanding of the second death.

This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is that process of correction that last the rest of their lives. As Ray explained it is after being baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

All of the elect will then go on the die physically, and await the first resurrection in the grave.

The rest of the human race will 'die once' a physical death... as Adam represented all humanity that partake of the tree of life, experience good and evil and then die a physical death.  All those that have NOT received the Holy Spirit indwelling, whose names are NOT written in the "Book of Life - Christ, these are all the dead that ever lived that will be raised back up to a physical life in the next age, with their same old carnal human beast nature. They are resurrected to judgment/correction, which is a spiritual second death of their carnality, which will be a process just as it is for the elect in this age.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v. 13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v. 14  Then Death (the physical death) and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes "there shall be no more death" in the next age, when Christ returns this age of "the law of sin and death" will come to a end. He will reign with the elect in the great white throne JUDGMENT period/age, when all of the world, everybody that has ever lived, will be taught righteous.

Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

Hab 2:14  For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.

This is from the article in the LoF 16 E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY  ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed  ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life  ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live  [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying  [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

1.The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

2.The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

3.We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.
v
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
 
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.
v
All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!
------------------------------------------------------------------

If we still cannot agree on this, instead of just talking in circles we can just leave it here, for now anyway.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:29:26 AM by Kat »
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2016, 12:23:05 AM »

Kat, let me see if I can explain this again,

Heres all the scriptures LRay point out

Quote
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY  ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed  ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life  ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live  [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying  [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5)

Everyone of those scriptures are saying
 casting and plucking which leads to life, why is Paul dying daily? Because he killing his flesh and how is he killing his flesh, by JUDGEMENT and judgement doesn't lead to death, no judgement leads to LIFE.

here is your quote and part of LRays quote you refer to

Quote
This second death is not the literal cessation of physical life like the first 'once to die,' it is judgment, and that means correction, purging and being cleansed of all carnality. This judgment which happens to the few elect in this life, in this age is a process. As Ray explained it is after they are baptized into His death - 'once to die,' then is their judgement, a 'spiritual' second death of being corrected/chastened.


How can you have a spiritual death when the order is first physical and THEN the spiritual. You can't die spiritually if you are not born in the spirit. No that whole comment does't make sense.

If man is appointed to more then on death then you will have to remove most of the scriptures and all the ones I posted before in the last few reply.

LRays quote

Quote
Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."


 All I can say to that is,  Prov 30:6  Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Lays Quote
Quote
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see.

Oh really is there a chapter and verse on that?

Now I showed you what the second death was and who was effected by it , read it over and over until you see it, its right there!!

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. ( a resurrection at a different time,and still their first and  only resurrection )
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ( his only resurrection,  and all the rest will only have a first resurrection as above scripture says ) )  on such the second death hath no power,( The second death will have power over know one!! ) but they ( the elect ) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.( what is the symbolism of death and hell, is it not the law of sin and death and the grave! ) This is the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: ( would not that be the symbolism of Sin ) which is the second death.

 There is no second death for man because he is only appointed to die ONCE.. Judgement leads to life.
No, whats cast into the lake of fire is the law of sin and death, thats the second death, the death of the law of sin and death. And there was no more DEATH

And I am not talking in circle... 

Michael
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:26:51 AM by Michael G »
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2016, 12:39:44 AM »


Michael, if you cannot understand what Ray stated, as those last 2 quotes you put in your post are from Ray's article. We need to let this go for now, as I do not know what else to tell you. Maybe review his LoF article E. 'Hades and the Second Death' again.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2016, 12:47:36 AM »

Kat that will be fine! I will not read them again.

2Ti 4:16  At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me:


In Christ Michael
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2016, 01:02:52 PM »

Hi Wittenberg, Heres what i have for both of your post..

 
Kat, I obviously agree with those scripture. Yet I have never met someone that doesn't sin. I believe someday I won't sin anymore while having a physical body. I don't know what needs to happen that enables me to not sin after my earthly death. I always assumed that my sinful nature won't exist after resurrection, but I don't know if that's scriptural.  If you have a reference on that, that would be great.

Thanks

This might help you to understand what sin is doing in your life now if you died and your life is hid in Christ

This is what Paul said,

Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? ( Judgement comes now onto life )
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, ( not the man but the body ) that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: ( same for you ) but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, ( but alive to God, not alive to die again )  but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.( unto life not death )
Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, ( death ) but under grace. ( which leads to life, not death )



I am now under grace and grace teaches me righteousness onto life. So any sin I do is not under the law which brings
death, for I died once. But if I sin now its under grace which brings righteousness onto life. Can you see that? Thank God for grace, I need grace, I need a lot of grace...

Romans 5:20-21   (KJV)

20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:( onto life ,not death )
21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, (thats the law ) even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life  ( not death )by Jesus Christ our Lord.

When you died and you were hid in Christ, your sin is in judgement onto life!


Michael, I've not been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if this is not on message or has been talked about already. 1 Cor 3:15 might be a reference to the 2nd death.
The day Ray died I'm assuming he sinned, he still had a sinful nature (like the rest of us). What happens to that sinful nature? Does it go away at the resurrection or does it need to be dealt with in some way? How do we become perfect?
 

1Co 3:15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Do you see that when you are in the fire it leads to life and not death....

Michael
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:06:25 PM by Michael G »
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Rene

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2016, 01:33:31 PM »

This is an example of why "No Teaching" is allowed on the forum.  As a reminder, here is what Ray had to say about why this rule exist:

http://bible-truths.com/video/NoTeaching.mp4

Why No Teaching On This Forum (transcript)

You know, because sometimes these discussions get a little out of hand... basically we teach that you are not suppose to 'teach' on the forum. The main reason for that is, many times it turns into heresy... but people can't always distinguish what is or what isn't heresy. Therefore they give their opinions and if somebody reads it on our forum, they say 'well this is what they teach on Ray's forum.' Yea, but Ray doesn't teach that on Ray's forum... somebody else does and we don't always agree.
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