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Author Topic: 1 Cor 15:51  (Read 7837 times)

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indianabob

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2016, 07:17:28 PM »


Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reply. Much appreciated.
I note that the quotes that you supplied are all future tense. In other words we have the sure and certain promise of God and If we are the elect then God will bring our change to pass, absolutely certain.
However, we should not expect to measure up to what we will be while we are still mortal. We sin every day and God through Christ has to keep working on us daily. Perhaps we see some small improvement compared to what we were before being called, but this is as nothing compared to what we will be when our change comes.

My further point then is that we should not be discouraged by our human limitations and lack of personal improvement, doubts, fears, frustrations, that we may find in our self examination. God has planned from the beginning to do the whole job. None of us will be able to please God by results caused by our own efforts. It is all God's work in us.

If you have further critiques please send them, I do want to learn and be corrected.

Indiana Bob





Hi Bob, your quote

Quote
but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns.

John 5:24   (KJV)

24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:39-40   (KJV)

39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:34-39   (KJV)

34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Peter 1:3-5   (KJV)

3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Revelation 2:17   (KJV)

17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 John 3:2   (KJV)

2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:1   (KJV)

3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 5:1   (KJV)

5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Romans 8:14-15   (KJV)

14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 3:26   (KJV)

26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6   (KJV)

6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14   (KJV)

13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD...


Sorry Bob but I don't  agree with that statement, thats just a few scriptures out of hundreds that say no to your statement.


R P J

Michael
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2016, 12:29:04 AM »

Hi Bob. Bob I think these scriptures quoted are in the present!!

1Jn 5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ( and what proof do we have) therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ephesians 2:4-5   (KJV)

4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans 8:14-15   (KJV)

14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, ( and who is led by the Spirit, the elect) they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 3:26   (KJV)

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6   (KJV)

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

If one thing that I remember LRay saying is we must believe the scriptures!! I underlined that which states it in the present.

R.P. J

Michael
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indianabob

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2016, 12:41:34 AM »

Hi Michael,

My understanding is that we have an "earnest" or a down payment, a declaration of intention through the indwelling of God's spirit, Christ's spirit.
So then one may say that we are "begotten" of God in this life, but we are not yet born of the spirit. We have a great change coming in our future based upon God's promise and we need to continue in faith trusting that God will fulfill His promise.
Check the full definition of the scripture where you read "born", I think it is better rendered begotten. (moderators correct me please)

For example, I know in myself that I still am weak and subject to temptation.
After I am born of the spirit of God I will have strength similar to that of our Lord Jesus and no longer be under temptation.

Does that explain a little better? I hope...

Indiana Bob
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2016, 01:00:10 AM »

Hi Bob, yes Iknow that the only one born of God is Jesus. But your quote stated that none qualify now and that's the part I don't agree with. All my scriptures say that we are qualified. That's all . And why are the elect qualified, because they died and if that includes me, I died and there for my life is hid in In Christ and as he is in this world some am I.  I must believe the scriptures. Do you have scriptures that say we are not the sons of God. And if you do please show them to me or else I have to believe what the scriptures say!

In Christ Michael
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 01:12:57 AM by Michael G »
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2016, 04:11:06 AM »

Hi Bob, here is some scriptures that say we are born of God

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jn 5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: ( and as he is so are we in this world born of God )  and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Born
G1080   (Strong)

γεννάω

gennaō

ghen-nah'-o

From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring
 
In Christ Michael
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 10:53:49 AM by Michael G »
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Rick

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2016, 10:10:19 PM »

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I guess that scripture ensures my appoitment at the white throne judgement as I don't believe Im sin free at this point and time in my life.

Im confused though because scripture also says if anyone says they have not sinned they are lying and have not the love of God in them.

God bless.

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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2016, 01:09:24 AM »


Hi Rick, when we have received the Holy Spirit we become a "new creation" (2Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15), it's not that we are no longer carnal or sin, but with the Spirit indwelling we are not under the death penalty, we have life, spiritual life.

Rom 6:4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5  For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
v. 6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v. 7  For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
v. 8  blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."

1Cor 6:11  That is what some of you were! But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus the Messiah and by the Spirit of our God.

Psa 103:11  For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;
v. 12  As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

1John 3:9  Whoever has been born (G1080, begotten) of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born (begotten) of God.

What I believe it means by "cannot sin" is that "you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Col 3:3 )... keeping going with this thought "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) and finally "(even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved)" (Eph 2:5)... v. 8  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

It's all about Christ, when His Spirit comes into us we are His and He has us covered, "there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Now with the Spirit God in us, teaching us, we are overcoming.

1John 5:4  For whatever is born (begotten) of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the worldóour faith.

1John 4:4  You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

Php 1:6  being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,

One other thing it is the same Greek word for born and begotten, while still in the flesh we are begotten, we have the earnest or promise of the inheritance of being born into His Kingdom at the first resurrection.

Eph 1:14  who is the guarantee (G728 a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

As long as we are in this fleshly carnal body we are not born of the spirit.

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v. 7  Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
v. 8  The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2016, 02:11:31 AM »

Thanks Kat, would just like to add to that,

Hi Rick like Kat showed we are hid in Christ

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

And again,

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Psa 32:2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Revelation 14:5   (KJV)

5  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Michael
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 02:14:06 AM by Michael G »
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Rick

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2016, 11:53:00 PM »

Hi Kat and Michael,

I been thinking and reflecting on the scriptures you both had put in your reply these past few days, I've come to understand what is not possible for man is for God.

One cannot hurry things or slow things, Gods timing is always perfect. It seems God always gives us what we need when we need it for our growth though one may not always see it that way.

Psa, 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity and in whose spirit there is no guile.

There is so much to be thankful for.

God bless.  :)

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To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2016, 01:28:00 AM »

Hi Rick
 
Quote
One cannot hurry things or slow things, Gods timing is always perfect. It seems God always gives us what we need when we need it for our growth though one may not always see it that way.

Very true  :)

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Amen to being thankful to God

Righteousness, Peace and Joy

Michael
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2016, 01:46:25 AM »

 Hi Kat, I just can't help but thinking on this, Part of your quote

Quote
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? Thatís right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!

Thats huge, so if the elect will be like him will they not be omnipresent? And if so meeting in the air and coming back here could well have them in both places at once? And the elect could be in the hearts of men holding them accountable at the same time? Them being cast into the lake of fire, the elect, wow how will that work? Wow so much to think on! I guess Paul new somethings, that he could tell us to set are minds on the prize of the high calling!!  How awesome is our God...

Michael
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2016, 02:24:30 AM »

Michael, the only way I can think about it is that the elect will be like Christ on this earth after His own resurrection. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2016, 11:36:00 AM »

Hi Kat, I just can't help but thinking on this, Part of your quote

Quote
Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? Thatís right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!

Thats huge, so if the elect will be like him will they not be omnipresent? And if so meeting in the air and coming back here could well have them in both places at once? And the elect could be in the hearts of men holding them accountable at the same time? Them being cast into the lake of fire, the elect, wow how will that work? Wow so much to think on! I guess Paul new somethings, that he could tell us to set are minds on the prize of the high calling!!  How awesome is our God...

Michael

Omnipresent is certainly a quality that God has, but I think that is specifically speaking of the Father. The Father is beyond anything I can comprehend, being everywhere at once, is certainly one of them and no doubt He has many qualities that we in the physical cannot relate to. Christ is able to draw on all of those qualities I suppose, but He was brought forth as a being with a spiritual body/image and that does not appear, to me, to be omnipresent as the Father is.

When the elect are giving glorious spiritual bodies I do believe they will have the qualities that Jesus has and exhibited after resurrection, like Dave was speaking of. I cannot understand what it is like to be invisible as Christ was when He vanished from the disciples sight... I do understand that to exist in the spiritual realm, another dimension beyond the physical world, you do not have a 'physical' body, but a spiritual body. But to interact with the physical realm, just as Christ did after resurrection you do need a physical body and I would suppose the elect can take on a physical body to appear to the physical world as He did.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2016, 12:26:40 PM »

 Hi Dave, Kat

Yes I do agree with you as these scriptures say what you are saying

Mar 16:12  After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Joh 21:4  But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus

John 20:14   (KJV)

14  And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

Luke 24:31   (KJV)

31  And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

John 20:19-29   (KJV)

19  Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Here is a quote from LRay

Quote
"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [Godís heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Manís heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas Godís heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.


I was thinking

John 10:30   (KJV)

30  I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us

John 17:11   (KJV)

11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we

Thats why I was thinking about omnipresent, I guess that being in two places at the same time does't add up to omnipresent. But is Jesus not in His Father who is Omnipresent and would not that make Him Omnipresent? 

Thanks Michael
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 12:32:22 PM by Michael G »
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2016, 04:03:43 PM »


Here is a quote from LRay

Quote
"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [Godís heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Manís heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas Godís heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.


I was thinking

John 10:30   (KJV)

30  I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us

John 17:11   (KJV)

11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we

Thats why I was thinking about omnipresent, I guess that being in two places at the same time does't add up to omnipresent. But is Jesus not in His Father who is Omnipresent and would not that make Him Omnipresent? 

Thanks Michael

Knowing that the Son was brought forth with the image of a man, I don't think He needs to be omnipresent as the Father is... He is in the form of a man to serve God's purpose. Every place that speaks of God's image in OT is of a man, when Ezekiel had 'visions' of God in His magnificent appearance He appeared like a man. We know this is who became Jesus.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.

And He is still the same, as a man, since His resurrection in the NT.

1Tim 2:5  For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

As you showed Christ is totally one with the Father and not a separate being. They are one in Spirit and mind and that's how the Father operates, it's through Christ to do what is necessary for this physical world. Christ is the Father's means of working, by and through the being of His Son, that He designed to be like us in the form of a man. That's how Jesus could say "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).

Eph 4:4  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ can automatically draw on all the powers of the Father... even the Spirit of Christ that believers receive is from the Father.

John 15:26  "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

So anyway I'm just seeing that you can't separate the Father from Christ... even though the Father is certainly omnipresent, I don't see Christ that way. Christ is in the image of a man so we can know and relate to God and that is how I believe it is suppose to be.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 09:51:56 PM by Kat »
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2016, 12:44:18 AM »

Thanks Kat, excellent!!  :D

What a blessing to have a place to come where those that are before you in the Lord can encourage  and edify those who come after.

Michael
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2016, 05:59:14 PM »

Hi Anthony, to your original question,
Hi Kat, now I see what your saying in reply #5

Quote
There are many Scripture that speaks of what happens in this age and it is certain that nobody will escape death, which Michael shows many Scripture that says so. Paul says that the few elect will be "changedóin a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1Cor 15:51, 52). Yes this is only the elect that will be "changed" and have glorious spiritual bodies and go to "meet the Lord in the air" (1Thess 4:17).

But when it comes to all the people that will be living on earth when the next age heralds in, we do not see Scripture that speaks of anything happening to them. Here is a passage in Revelation that speaks directly to the beginning of the next age, the elect are already resurrected "new Jerusalem" descending to earth with Christ announces to the people on earth that He is returning to live with them on earth. That passage says "there shall be no more death" and nothing of all the unconverted people being killed or dying, nor does any other Scripture I know of.

Rev 21:1  Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
v. 2  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
v. 5  Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
v. 6  And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
       
This is what came to me when I reread the starting of this thread until I hit your post Kat

Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical )  would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!

So  there could be billions of people who never taste physical death, I see that, is that  what you were saying Kat?   


 R.P and J  In Christ Michael
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 06:24:16 PM by Michael G »
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2016, 07:32:38 PM »


Hi Michael, here is where Ray has explained this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----------------------------------

As we shall see, Jesus has "the keys of hades and of death." Jesus can therefore unlock the gates when He gathers His Elect at His coming, and receive them into His Kingdom. The rest of the dead are resurrected with physical bodies, back to physical life, to enter their SECOND death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect.
v
Death itself will be destroyed, or as the Concordant Version renders it: "the last enemy being abolished: death." (It is more likely to abolish something that is inanimate rather than to destroy it as the King James translates it).

So we have the act, the state, and the cause, all being the definition of "death." Hence all three must be abolished or there will yet remain some form of death which would then continue to be an eternal "enemy" in God's creation.

The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER.
v
And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:08). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:

"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on the UNGODLY:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).

Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)

and

 "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:08).
v
"And I saw another sign in heaven...And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God" (Rev. 15:1 & 2).

Yes, these are the Elect of God who are now before the Throne of God and are standing on a beautiful crystal clear sea of glass. They have been tamed. They have conquered the beast within and the beast of Babylon without. They are shown victorious over the beast, his image, his mark and his name, but it came at a price. Did you notice the words "sea of glass mingled with FIRE?" Yes, the world must go through the fire, the lake of fire/second death, and so must God's Elect. But here they are pictured SAFE (saved) not unlike when Jesus calmed the sea and saved His Own disciples from the raging waves of the sea.
v
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
v
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 10:05:53 PM by Kat »
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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2016, 11:35:04 PM »

No matter how many times I read that from Ray, I could never understand what it meant to be "baptized into Jesus Christ" till today. It's like the blinders were kept in place till now. Not sure why. Anyway great discussion!
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2016, 01:59:24 AM »

Hello everyone,


My quote
Quote
Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death ( the gehenna fire ) their first death and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, which would be their first death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the second death ( physical )  would have no effect on them. So the second death is for those who have died once physically and will be resurrected into there second death the lake of fire and they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!


Just Editing for clearer understanding. Like to add LRay didn't say anything about those who are alive and remain who are not the elect in the quote that Kat showed that I could see. So this order below is How I,am trying to see when the next age begins with those who are alive when he returns with his elect. And corrections added as well!


Those of us who are alive and remain ( the elect ) have been baptized into his death, the first Death and then comes judgement ( the second death )  and they will not see ( physical ) death, but they will be changed in a moment, a twinkling of the eye. And those who are alive at that time who are not the elect, will be also Baptized into his death,  and cast into the lake of fire, which would be the second death ( and if there shall be no more death ) then they would not physically die ( but be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of the eye ). And the physical death would have no effect on them. So those who have died once physically and will be resurrected and cast into the lake of fire judgement which is the second death,  they to will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of a eye because there is no more death!

AS I see it!  :) Re edited again today ,the blinders came off     ::)
 
So only the elect are in the first death, and all the rest are in the second death which is the lake of fire. So really physical death has nothing to do with it. The beast must die!! 
Michael
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:17:14 PM by Michael G »
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