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Author Topic: 1 Cor 15:51  (Read 10598 times)

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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2016, 10:03:11 AM »


John 14:12  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

And how are the elect to do the works that Christ does, without practice?

1John 4:4  You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is IN you is greater than he who is in the world.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.

John 10:34  Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
v. 35  If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
v. 36  do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
v. 37  If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
v. 38  but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

John 17:11  Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

BTW - Ray spoke in much detail in the Secret Rapture paper about how the elect meet Christ in the air and they return to earth with Him http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 10:12:50 AM by Kat »
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zvezda

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2016, 12:13:38 PM »


When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.


I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.

I think our root disagreement is that Kat thinks God's wrath and Judgement are the same thing, so when the elect judge the world with Christ, it also means they join in His wrath; while Dave and I think the elect will be saved from the wrath and only need to involve in the judgement.

Kat, the verses (Rev 6:17, Rom 2:5, Job 19:29) you showed in your previous posts are too weak to prove that God's wrath and judgement are the same thing. When analyzing a statement, it helps if we simplify it first -

Rom 2:5 simply says "you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of A and B" -  it doesn't necessarily mean A and B are the same day.
Job 19:29 simply says "for wrath brings X, so you know there is a Y" - it doesn't necessarily mean X and Y are the same thing.
Rev 6:17 mentions the day of His wrath only.

You also underlined Rev 6:16 (hide us from the face of His...), I don't think it implies the same thing as Isaiah 26:20.
In Isaiah 26:20, it's the Lord that commands His people to hide; while in Rev 16, it's the kings, rich men, etc that ask the mountains to help them hide.
Lord's command Vs men's request - Big difference.

Didn't Ray always say judgement is correction, not punishment?

His wrath sends punishment and His judgment sends correction. When the elect are going through judgment in their life time, do they think they are going through God's wrath/punishment too?

I guess until there are two witnesses clearly say His wrath/punishment and Judgement are the same thing, we will just agree to disagree.
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »


I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.

Hi zvezda, yes that is true, we are putting into action obedience to God now, so it is practice for later.

I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that puts wrath and judgment together is too weak? Wrath is just a severe form of punishment/correction, needed for those resurrected with a reprobate/diabolical mind, which should be plenty. But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction... I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus. But anyway I will just bring this I found from Ray.

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html -----------------------

We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).

Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32)    "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12)    "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!

"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!

"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.

"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.

The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.

When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!

It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.

When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?

If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.

And again I ask, "What does this have to do with the lake of fire?" EVERYTHING! I am not going to go into detail on this aspect of judging yet, but suffice it to be said here that the "judging" (Greek: krino in I Cor. 11:32 by chastening that brings godly living and salvation is also the very same "judging" (Greek: krino) used in Revelation 20:12 with reference to the lake of fire.

Seriously, do many believe that these God-inspired Greek words have one meaning when applied to God judging and gracing believers now, but then have a totally different meaning when applied to as yet non-believers in the day of judging? Do you? Well, regrettably, many do think that God is fickle, inconsistent, and a respecter of persons. Can you for once in your life begin to use your God-given mind to think for yourself?

This is an absolutely marvelous teaching. God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:

"Teaching us..." King James

"Instructing us..." American Standard Version

"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)

"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)

"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)

Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, PUNISHING us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to DISCIPLINE, TRAIN, INSTRUCT, SCHOOL AND TEACH.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 01:54:09 PM by Kat »
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zvezda

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2016, 01:50:56 PM »


I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that says that put wrath and judgment together is too weak?

I have simplified the 3 scriptures, you just need to substitute those A/B/X/Y with whatever you like to help you understand the logic behind and why it's weak. I will give some examples -

you are storing up food for your family in the day of tornado and earthquake - it doesn't necessarily mean tornado and earthquake will happen on the same day.

for seat belt brings safety, so you know there is a law. - obviously seat belt safety and law are not the same thing, it's just cause and effect, cause always happens before effect.

But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction. I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus.

True. I guess we need to go back to what Dave suggested about the timeline:

Where are the elect in this "timeline"?  Maybe here?

Rev_11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 02:57:30 PM by zvezda »
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Joel

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2016, 03:21:33 PM »

Here are a few scriptures to consider;

John11:24-Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25-Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26-And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?

Colossians 3:1-If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2-Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3-For ye are dead, and your life is hide with Christ in God.
4-When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Joel
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2016, 03:29:59 PM »


Where are the elect in this "timeline"?  Maybe here?

Rev_11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.

The timeline that we have in the Scripture is this.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:11  Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is the first resurrection of the elect and then the great white throne with the dead small and great raised to be judged... we do not know what order there might be for them.

Quote
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.

This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees?  Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.

p.s. Thanks Joel.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 03:48:09 PM by Kat »
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zvezda

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2016, 04:10:31 PM »

This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees?  Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.


I already given you the scripture, that's Rev 11:18. It lists out each event one by one.
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2016, 05:01:08 PM »


Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

I do not see this as a sequence of events, one after the other, if it were there would at least be 'and then,' but the "and" just shows the different things that are to happen at that time.

Anyway as you have said, we will just agree to disagree on this for now.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2016, 06:42:54 PM »

I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath".  Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING.  Let's not be guilty of equating the two.

I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe.  But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath.  Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two.  I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown. 

I'm reminded of Ray's "parable" about the young African girl in one of the letters to Hagee or Kennedy that started this website.  Her "correction", Ray intimated, will be light.  Part of her correction will be the presentation of the truth of the Love of God, and His wisdom in all His working.  Ray may not have said that in that way then, but I do believe it, and that he did too.

To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect.  What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"?  Because they have come out of Her.  That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath.  Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"?  That's been my understanding for eight years.  Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown.  That's not the world at large.  That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn.  Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced.  Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood.  I don't think the rules will change then either. 
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 07:10:59 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2016, 07:39:03 PM »

Just so Kat doesn't think she's typing to a brick wall, I have seen one thing more clearly in the study that sprung out of this discussion.  I no longer think the "world" will be universally and immediately "happy" to see His coming in Glory.  That may well be reserved for those who believe and do.  They may well be "angry", but soon enough their anger will turn towards the Great Whore.

Surely they will be "happy" eventually.  I guess I'll have to live a little longer to understand this.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2016, 08:07:42 PM »

Yes Dave,

Mat 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Matthew 22:13   (KJV)

13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28   (KJV)

28  There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2016, 08:29:07 PM »


Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts.

There are a number of Scripture that indicate that God's wrath will be on the "wicked," from either the church or the world. If it speaks of His wrath in the OT, than I would think it could not be speaking of Babylon.

Job 21:30  For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.

Nah 1:2  God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

Rom 2:8  But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
v. 9  tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man who has worked out evil; of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

Rom 12:19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Pro 11:20  Those of crooked heart are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are His delight.
v. 21  Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered.
v. 22  Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a beautiful woman without discretion.
v. 23  The desire of the righteous ends only in good; the expectation of the wicked in wrath.

Psa 110:5  The Lord at Your right hand shall strike through kings in the day of His wrath.

Anyway I'm not just trying to win an argument here, as I've studied these Scripture how can I deny what they say?

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 09:42:37 PM by Kat »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2016, 08:50:13 PM »

I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath".  Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING.  Let's not be guilty of equating the two.

I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe.  But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath.  Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two.  I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown.

Alright.  No need to look it up, I found it myself.  So here's repentance #37 or 69 or whatever.  Ray taught that the 'difference' between chastening/correction and indignation/wrath is the both the manner in which God delivers them AND the attitude of those receiving them.  Now, this makes perfect sense in explaining why the chosen of God are not appointed unto wrath.   

Quote
  To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect.  What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"?  Because they have come out of Her.  That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath.  Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"?  That's been my understanding for eight years.  Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown.  That's not the world at large.  That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn.  Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced.  Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood.  I don't think the rules will change then either. 

True enough that being saved from wrath applies to the elect.  But not true that "wrath/indignation" is reserved exclusively for the Great Whore, the kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on the wine of her fornication.  So there's repentance # God-only-knows.

God only knows how many are left.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Jeff

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2016, 09:52:21 PM »

Does eonian chastisement mean that we'll be rebuked and reprimanded for an entire age?

I suppose it could be a short age.

After this life I think I'd rather just sleep for eternity than go from 50, 60, 70 years of torment and endure an eon of additional horror.

Jeff, if you are speaking of the judgment on the world in the next age, it is clear that God is a just and fair and will chasten everybody individually according to how they lived. If a person has good works they will even be rewarded.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So it's not just going to be eon of horrors at all... if you think about it all of the patriarchs and prophets will be raised physical in the next age, even John the Baptist. They have already proven their faith and obedience in God and certainly will not be tormented in judgment, they just need to know the gospel message of Christ Jesus. And there will be lots of babies and children resurrected in the next age as well, they certainly will not need harsh correction either... but the opposite extreme is there will be those that are reprobates that will only understand a very strong arm of correction. All "will learn righteousness" (Isa 26:9), it will just require a great variance of how God will bring that ."

"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").

NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.

The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."

It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:

"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).

Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.

Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):

"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."

What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."

Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:

"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).

Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.

Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:08). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.

"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08).

Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.

Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.

To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change. 

"When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you Kat. :). In spite of the knowledge Ive been given, I still struggle with doubts and fear.  Not fear that God is not just, or true, or faithful, and never-changing, it's something in me.  It's easy enough to remind myself of the Truth, but I think it's just part of who I am.  I know that God will change me when He does.

I tried to edit to reduce the quoting but tablets are mostly useless.

Jeff
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Jeff

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2016, 10:08:56 PM »

Quote
Dave, the brunt this conversation has been about God's wrath in the next age, it has always been my opinion that the first resurrection was immediately upon Christ's return. So I never even thought that the elect would be under God's wrath for a minute, because their entering the kingdom means their judgment is finished and they are perfected. That was the distinguishing factor to me, the first resurrection, and I assumed that was understood - the elect being with Christ eliminated them from wrath, so I neglected to explain that in my posts

One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners.  Is that where

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

changes the elect?
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Kat

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2016, 11:15:47 PM »



One thing I don't quite understand about this is that at the time of Christs return, at that moment, everyone is still evil - sinners.  Is that where

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

changes the elect?

1Co 15:35  But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"

1Cor 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
v. 50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
v. 52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."


Hi Jeff, in this passage you can see in verse 35 Paul is talking about "How are the dead raised up," that would be the elect in the first resurrection, because he is speaking to the "brethren." But that happens at the very end of this age, so yes this world is still as wicked as ever.

The dead elect will be raised up out of their graves first and then the physically living elect "shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." This old carnal flesh and blood body will become a glorious spiritual body and rise up to join their brethren as they all will "meet the Lord in the air."

1Thess 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v. 17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is their glorious union with Christ, to be one with God - entering the kingdom, and I believe the beginning of the next age. For them "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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indianabob

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2016, 01:29:11 AM »

Hi folks,

One thing that I am sure was already covered, but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns. What ever we become will be a distinct and obvious miracle.
When we who have been acquainted on this forum see and communicate with one another shortly after the change is effected in us, we will readily see that it is a miracle of God because of the great and miraculous change in us that makes us seem almost totally different people. The improvement if we can think of it that way will be
99.999 % from what we were the second before our change.
This life is not about becoming better or about letting God do His work in us. God shall do his perfecting work 100% Himself through His son the Lord Jesus. We won't even recognize ourselves after our change is come. We shall be like our elder brother the Lord Jesus, because we shall see him as he is.

Indiana Bob
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2016, 01:43:40 AM »

Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.

Quote
RAPTURE OF THE WICKED

Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"

"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).

Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!

And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."

For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares

"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).

And

"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).

So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.

Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."

Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?

One more,

"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).

Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!


And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,

Quote
Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:

"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).

"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).

"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).

"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).

"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).

And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).


Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,

http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3

So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3
 
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Mike Gagne

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Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2016, 02:03:59 AM »

Hi Bob, your quote

Quote
but bears repeating is "that none of us will be already perfected or qualified or have been made acceptable when Christ returns.

John 5:24   (KJV)

24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:39-40   (KJV)

39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:34-39   (KJV)

34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Peter 1:3-5   (KJV)

3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Revelation 2:17   (KJV)

17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

1 John 3:2   (KJV)

2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:1   (KJV)

3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 5:1   (KJV)

5:1  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Romans 8:14-15   (KJV)

14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 3:26   (KJV)

26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6   (KJV)

6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14   (KJV)

13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD...


Sorry Bob but I don't  agree with that statement, thats just a few scriptures out of hundreds that say no to your statement.


R P J

Michael
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 01:41:02 PM by Michael G »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor 15:51
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2016, 11:26:39 AM »

Hi Kat, are the elect really risen? In Rays paper on the rapture he says its the wicked that are removed.

Quote
RAPTURE OF THE WICKED

Notice that our Lord instructs us that "as the days of Noah, thus shall it be." Okay then, how was it in the days of Noah? Who was "left" and who was "taken away?"

"For as they were in those days before the deluge, eating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all AWAY, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind" (Mat. 24:38-39).

Did you catch that? It was all the wicked who were eating, drinking, and marrying that were "TAKEN AWAY," not Noah and his family!

And so here we have a principle that is used throughout the entire Bible--the good are left and the bad are taken away. Immediately after verse 39 where the wicked are "taken," we have verse 40 which says, "Then two shall be in the field; one [wicked] is taken along and one left: two grinding at the millstone; one [wicked] is taken along and one left."

For further conformation of this look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. You all know the parable, so I won’t repeat all of it. Just notice that the tares

"are gathered and burned in the fire" (Mat. 13:40).

And

"they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend ..." (Ver 41).

So the tares are gathered out and burned and the wheat is left behind.

Notice Romans 8:33, "... God’s elect," Col. 3:12, "... the elect of God ..." Titus 1:1, "... God;s elect ..." Now look at Mat. 24:22, "Yet because of the elect [chosen], those days shall be shortened." Therefore, the "elect" or chosen ones have not been raptured away, but rather left, or God wouldn’t have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the "elect."

Didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father, "I am not asking that Thou shouldst be taking them AWAY OUT OF THE WORLD, but that Thou shouldst be keeping them from the wicked one" (John 17:15)?

One more,

"Again the Kingdom of heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea [multitudes of people, Rev. 17:15] and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire ..." (Mat. 13:47-50).

Clearly the good are retained and kept, but the bad are severed and taken away! If ever there is to be a rapture, it will be A RAPTURE OF THE WICKED, not of the saints!


And then he give scripture that shows the elect will remain,

Quote
Now a few Scriptures to show that it was always God’s intention that the righteous remain on this earth:

"The righteous shall never be REMOVED [or raptured]; and the wicked shall not inherit the earth" (Prove. 10:30).

"The righteous shall be recompensed in the EARTH [not raptured to heaven]" (Prov. 11:31).

"Take AWAY the dross from the silver ... Take AWAY the wicked from the King ..." (Prov. 25:4-5).

"They [the wicked] are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY " (Job 21:18).

"... take hold of the ends of the earth that the wicked might be shaken OUT of it" (John 38:13).

And finally, "... REMOVING those things that are shaken [the wicked] ... that those things that cannot be shaken [the righteous] may REMAIN ... accepting an unshakable kingdom ..." (Heb. 12:27-28).


Then in this audio, its seems he say that the elect are taken out,

http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3

So is it that the elect remain and then the wicked are cast in to them that are apart of the lake of fire? I heard your voice in the audio so maybe you can clear it up for me? Thanks Kat
http://bibletruths.com/audio/Discussi.mp3

Hi Michael, Ray was emphasizing in that article that the elect are not going to be whisked off to heaven, as the church teaches. What you presented from his article is what he believed would happen to the wicked. But he did mention the elect meeting Christ in the air and returning to earth with Him.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm -------------------

Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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