Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?

[Wittenberg]

I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?

Thanks

[Dennis Vogel]

We know God is both male and female. Adam was both before Eve. That's all I can think of for now.

[Kat]

I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?

Thanks

Hi Wittenberg,

1Cor 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
v. 47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
v. 48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
v. 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

First of all there was never a "fall" of Adam and Eve, they were created from their first day "earthy" and not with the Holy Spirit, so they were carnal and just as spiritual weak as the rest of humanity... does a day go by when a human being does not sin in one way or another?  I don't think so and neither did they, so they were doomed for destruction/lost/perished as all humanity is in this life, accept a very few that will be saved in this life.

Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

The Son took on this earthy body, so to experience the same life we have to and die as we must, there's how He was the same as us. But He had the Holy Spirit without measure (John 3:34)... therefore He never sinned and was not of a carnal nature as the rest of humanity, he was God. Big difference.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[willemv]

Hi Wittenberg
That was now really a good question and I find it difficult to relate to the last response.I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning and there was no "fall".Then you say in fact God created Adam as a sinner? To me the Word of God teaches that Adam was created in the image of God (although without knowledge of good and evil). They lived in complete harmony with their Creator and we do not know how much time expired between their creation and the great deception of Satan. But surely they were completely innocent !This relationship is actually confirmed when God called Adam after the "fall" and Adam tried to hide from God because of his "nakedness"(the knowledge of evil in his own life because of their wrong choice )In Rom 5:12 we read :" wherefore as by one man sin entered(it was not there before )into this world and death by sin ;and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."What does this say?There was innocence (first ) and then sin and death and "so death passed upon all men "--this is how we are all as guilty as Adam - born in sin --Adam's sin imputed upon all men. This is the point where men's nature changed for all generations. In the same way we are all guilty of the Crucifixion of Christ (Ray's teaching -not mine )As sinners we are of the seed of Adam (being the seminal father of all mankind )and as believers we are in Christ quickened by his Spirit -- even so the battle between the flesh and the spirit  rages on in our lifes.
Also to say that Christ came to this earth to experience the same life and die as we ,is a bit of a loose statement. He came to save the world from sin. For that the Father sent Him to be born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit so as to be flesh but without the contamination of the "fallen " flesh of the first Adam. For the rest He was equal to man except for sin. He was also to withstand temptations and trials (read Ray's teaching on Jesus's trial in the garden of Gethsemany )Adam was also created the son of God  (see the genealogy of Jesus in Luk 3:38) in other words pure in mind and innocent.When Scripture likens or compares Jesus to the man Adam it is the Adam after he came to the knowledge of good and evil (first Adam -sin ; second Adam -- redemption of sin )
Again , good question and worthwhile contemplating on ,Yours in Christ , Wim

[jingle52]

Ray teaches clearly that man was created with a weak heart from the beginning,
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

otherwise Eve would not have "lusted with her eyes"  etc. Gen 6. also 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

God created all things and Satan too for a purpose and his purpose was to deceive Eve so that God's plan could be initiated for mankind

God knew that Eve would be deceived so didn't intervene when the serpent did his work "He knows the end from the beginning" Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Another point to consider, if Eve was not deceived and their eyes opened, then they would not have had sexual intercourse to start the human race and they would still have been the only two in the garden. But God himself told them to "be fruitful and multiply" Gen 1:28 (because He knew the end from the beginning and that they would only be able to be fruitful and multiply after they had eaten of the fruit) and God Himself placed that tree there for them to eventually eat from it, thus initiating His divine plan for humanity.

God's plan was to select his saints and elect for them to be his sons and daughters
Lk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Kat also brings forth scriptures that prove this point exactly!

This is my understanding so far, if I'm wrong please correct me

Jingle

[Kat]

Hi willemv,

Here ane a few places that discuss these things.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html ------------------

THE UNSCRIPTURAL 'FALL OF MAN'

Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man's fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.


http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------------------

Seeing that Adam and Eve were "carnal-minded" from creation, and that the carnal mind CANNOT love God or be obedient to His laws (Rom. 8:7), no one could do differently than Mother Eve did.  No human on earth has ever been found, save Jesus Christ, in whom it can be proved that he or she never did wrong, made a mistake, broke a law, or committed many other such sins.


http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam ---------------

As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."

The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?

Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.

Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.

Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together: 

"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?"  Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.

Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?"   NO! "...for that ALL have sinned."  All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."

A better translation helps our understanding: 

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."

They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"

But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD."  Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!

Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
----------------------------------------------------------------

1Co 15:45  Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

"The first man Adam" was natural represents all mankind living carnal lives to spiritual weak to not sin. It's not because of Adam's sin that we sin, it's because of the weak carnal nature given to all mankind.

"The last Adam" represents the the life-giving Spirit of God/Christ which is only come into a few now in this age, but all eventually come to all and gives us spiritual life in Christ.

1Co 15:49  Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------------

What Christ did could not be put into books—the whole [kosmos] could not contain it.

Jesus did not fulfill the sacrificed sin offering only. Jesus was not merely one offering, but the many offerings, burnt offerings, the meat offering, the peace offerings, the trespass offering, and the sin offering. Jesus also prefigured the priest doing the offering, the meaning of each offering, the compartments and furniture of the tabernacle, the bread, the candles, the curtain, the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle itself, and the whole nation of Israel—Jesus prefigures all and FULFILLED ALL.

No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "...as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).

And that is the simple explanation of this marvelous truth. The Scriptures speak of far more than just the prophesies of Jesus coming as the Messiah.

We are all in Adam. We do all that Adam did. We believe in the Spirit what Israel lived in the flesh. All Israel was baptized in the Red Sea. We are all baptized into Christ's death. And now the last Adam (Christ) lives His life in us (Gal. 2:20), but not until we repent of the first Adam of the flesh living his life in us.

"Then opened He their UNDERSTANDING, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45);

"Consider what I say: and the Lord give you UNDERSTANDING in all things" (II Tim. 2:7).

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an UNDERSTANDING, that we may know Him that is True..." (I John 5:20).

"And you shall know [Gk: 'sure understanding'—but future] the truth, and the truth shall make [future] you free" (John 8:32)

For three and one-half years Jesus promised that some day His apostles would know the truth. But clear to the end of three and one-half years of learning at the feet of Jesus, the Apostles did not yet understand His teaching, purpose or plan. One day they were blind to these truths, and the next they understood. How is that possible?

We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ's ministry, we are told that:

"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).

But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:

"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).

Maybe, TODAY, will be the day that God begins to "open your understanding of the Scriptures."

Jesus said to His disciples:

"...ALL THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, CONCERNING ME. Then opened He their understanding..." (Luke 24:44-45).
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!

I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning

CLV  Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

CLV  Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."

CLV  Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."

As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?

CLV  Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No

Michael

[Kat]

Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!

I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning

CLV  Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

CLV  Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."

CLV  Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."

As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?

CLV  Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.

Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No

Michael

Okay here is my quote, "does a day go by when a human being does not sin in one way or another?  I don't think so and neither did they, so they were doomed for destruction/lost/perished as all humanity is in this life, accept a very few that will be saved in this life."

Here is the definition of doom - 1 : judgment; esp : a judicial condemnation or sentence 2 : destiny 3 : ruin, death— doom vb

Here is where Ray spoke on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------

So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
v
A word study will clearly show anyone that Jesus came to SAVE those who are and will be destroyed. And do I have a Scripture on that? I am glad that you asked. Here is a beautiful lesson that will show us just how important it sometimes is to know from what original word a word in our English translations came.

Here is the temporary fate of most humanity:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Did Jesus come to SAVE all those who enter the broad gate to "destruction?" YES HE DID:

"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST" (Matt. 18:11)!

There it is!

There is what? Where does that verse say that Jesus came to "SAVE that which was DESTROYED?" Why right in the verse, of course. You see, the New Testament was written in GREEK, and in Greek, here is what Matt. 18:11 says: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was apollumi." And just what does apollumi mean in English? Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: "#622 {92x} apollumi to destroy, to perish, or lose" (page 37). Ninety-two times in the New Testament we read of "destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost, and they are all translated from the same one word, apollumi! So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL!

Old Testament too:

"O Israel, you have DESTROYED yourself; but in Me is your help... I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death..." (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!

"The righteous PERISH, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1)

And concerning lost Israel God says,

"I will seek that which was LOST, and bring again that which was driven away..." (Ezek. 34:16).
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Kat, yes I agree with that. Didn't know what the word doomed really meant. But was it not his carnal nature that was doomed and not him himself?  As I said Adams flesh was doomed, but not Adam himself, and I said that because As in Adam All die, but also in Christ All shall be made alive. I was referring it to his carnal nature, so when His righteous judgements are in the earth, we all will learn righteousness. And the carnal nature will die but we will be saved with fire. And we will all be in his children. Thats why I didn't see it as doom for Adam but for his flesh, because we all will be the children of God.

lol need lots of grammar work   


Michael.

[Dave in Tenn]

I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?

Thanks

It's a bit hard to answer the question, as I don't believe Adam "fell".  The woman was deceived.  The man was not.  In that way, the man and THE MAN are similar.  (as are the woman and THE WOMAN). 

I also tend to think of 'men' in the natural as not YET men in the Spiritual.  It's not 'wrong' to call people of a certain age 'men'.  It's not even wrong to include 'women' in 'men'.  But all of "us" men in the Spiritual are not yet even born.

 

[willemv]

Hi Kat

Thanks for your time , I made a print and will follow all the links you provided.Still difficult to shake off 70 years of indoctrination but God willing I will get there.
God bless , Wim

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Dave, Just would like to add a thought to part of your quote.

But all of "us" men in the Spiritual are not yet even born.

I would just like to say that those who've been chosen are certainly in the process to be born spiritually.

Isa 44:2  Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 46:3  Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

Isa 49:1  Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb;

Isa 49:5  And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

And my favourite

Psa 12:6  The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth( the flesh of man ), purified seven times.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:



Isaiah 37:3   (KJV)

3  And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth

Isa 66:9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Yes those that are chosen are not born of the spirit yet but they will come out of the womb...


R.P.and J

Michael

Maybe this doesn't even belong in this thread ?

[Ricky]

I don't think God has anything to do with being male or female, that is something He created.

[John from Kentucky]

I don't think God has anything to do with being male or female, that is something He created.

What say the Scriptures?

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"...  Gen 1:26

So God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.  Gen 1:27


Both male and female are in the image of God.  Thus, both male and female are contained in God.

[lareli]

Scripture says that Gods image is male and female. Is His image Him anymore than my image is me? Doesn't Numbers 23 says God is not a man?

Saying God is both male and female or that Adam was male and also female (trapped in a male body)... Hmm.

[Kat]

These comments about being male and female made me think... everything that is created is for a distinct purpose and humans were created in the image of God, male and female, so it does have something to do with what God Himself is revealing in us.

Gen 1:27  So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

The question is why did God make mankind with two genders? 'I think' that this is the basic plan, that in creating the two different genders, with their own diverse ways of thinking and acting, we have both parts that represent the whole or complete being, which is God and this is demonstrated out in marriage.

Gen 2:24  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

To me in an ideal marriage, it is combining the two different parts/genders, that when combined and are working together in harmony make a whole unity. God already possesses all these qualities within Himself, He is complete and perfect and therefore understands every aspect of both male and female.

1Cor 11:3  But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

But of course that is just the basic concept, there is much more to the intricate relationships in this world. For one thing God designed the structure of authority/rule for human society with the man created first and placed first in authority over the woman. I do not believe this is meant to demean a woman, it's just the roles we are given and the way we carry it out develops our character for good or bad. God also revealed how this distinction in gender is incorporated throughout our lives with the Israelites and how it plays out in their society and religious customs.

Because this is the structure of authority that God has placed in this world, I believe this is why God is always referred to in the masculine, in all OT references He is a man and He came to earth as a man, that is what was required for Him to fulfill His mission. God has designated the man to be an authority figure in the world for many reasons and God uses the male gender to identify Himself to the world as an authority figure as well.

Num 23:19  "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent...

In that particular Scripture it says "God is not a man" and it continues to say in what way He is not like a man "that He should lie." The first part cannot be taken without the next part to get a proper understanding of it.

1Tim 2:5  For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

But this is just my pondering, maybe it'll gives us something to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English.  It is not just a metaphor or symbol.

I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.

It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form.  God made us in the God form.  We are His kinfolk.  His children.  Thus we look like our Father.  We are made after the God kind of life.  Not angels.  We will be at the top of the life chain.  It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us.  We were special enough that He died for us.

The study of God is endlessly fascinating.  Nothing else comes close.  What fun!

[lilitalienboi16]

Scripture says that Gods image is male and female. Is His image Him anymore than my image is me? Doesn't Numbers 23 says God is not a man?

Saying God is both male and female or that Adam was male and also female (trapped in a male body)... Hmm.

--------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.

COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?

Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.

When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study. [/b]

-----------------------


Are there any scriptures that would indicate this word image could carry more than just spiritual metaphorical meaning? Yes I think there are.

Consider genesis 9:6 which states that humanity was made, past tense, in the image of God. But surely this blood shedding carnal humanity could not refer to God's spiritual image and character, could it?

Gen 9:6 The shedder of the blood of a human, by a human his blood shall be shed, for in the image of the Elohim has He made humanity.

A new testament proof of this idea is found in Paul's usage of man's image. Referring to a generic man which includes carnal God hating humanity paul says;

1Co_11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Not even we who have God's spirit are yet in His complete spiritual image (As its a process) and yet paul could still call a generic man the image AND glory of God. How is that possible?

Does God have a form? An image that man was made after back in Genesis as ray pointed out?

Who is the Lord Jesus if not God's image and form?

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus;

Php 2:5 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesus:
Php 2:6 In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who [Jesus] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature

And we know Jesus is God:

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Just adding my thoughts to a very very interesting topic!

God bless,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English.  It is not just a metaphor or symbol.

I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.

It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form.  God made us in the God form.  We are His kinfolk.  His children.  Thus we look like our Father.  We are made after the God kind of life.  Not angels.  We will be at the top of the life chain.  It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us.  We were special enough that He died for us.

The study of God is endlessly fascinating.  Nothing else comes close.  What fun!

Agreed. Here is your reference John!

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Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?

So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?

COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.

Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?

COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").

So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?

COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27,  And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.

Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,

COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!

[indianabob]

Whether we are made in the physical "image" of god rather than just the spiritual image, a process to be consummated at our change to glory, I've always looked at it as we are beings with the ability to communicate with one another and with God. WE know that we are alive and we know that we shall all die and we discuss that knowledge and wonder about it among ourselves and often with God in prayer.

God can create anything God desires to exist and yet he chose to create the masses of human kind by sexual reproduction wherein the humans as mother and father have a part in the creation of new life. On the other hand all the other animal types follow instinct and are unaware mentally or emotionally of a participation in a process leading to a beneficial result that is according to God's great plan for expanding the God family.

I don't see that God has to be either/both male or female as a pattern for the creation of sexual "gender" in human kind. God could be neuter and still invent/create this method of expanding human populations, making it practical and exciting and fun all at the same time. Sexual reproduction is obviously God's desire for the better way to bring billions of thinking beings into HIS family. As the source of the design of males and females God certainly gave us individual attributes that contribute to a good final result, e.g. becoming "one flesh", but stating that God is both male and female could lead to confusion in the minds of those who are not able to make a detailed study of languages used in scripture. e.g. anthropomorphism... Perhaps it is better to just understand that God's love is expressed in two separate ways, one in the female and one in the male, but all joining together to express God's will for how we relate, being from the same mind of God provided for us to emulate.

Kindly offered, indiana bob