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Author Topic: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?  (Read 4179 times)

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2016, 12:11:07 PM »

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).

Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.

"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2016, 12:14:39 PM »

To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English.  It is not just a metaphor or symbol.

I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.

A few days ago I heard Ray say the opposite - If I find it again I'll post a link here.
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2016, 01:19:05 PM »

Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2016, 01:35:07 PM »

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).

Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.

"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.

Hi Dennis,

Perhaps what ray meant was the passages in which the word is used and not just what Dr. Strong's assigned the word to mean?

Why not look at the 17 times the word is used in the old testament? Perhaps the usage of the word could be more helpful to us.

I got these with a quick search in esword for the word, here are all the uses.

Gen_1:26  And GodH430 said,H559 Let us makeH6213 manH120 in our image,H6754 after our likeness:H1823 and let them have dominionH7287 over the fishH1710 of the sea,H3220 and over the fowlH5775 of the air,H8064 and over the cattle,H929 and over allH3605 the earth,H776 and over everyH3605 creeping thingH7431 that creepethH7430 uponH5921 the earth.H776

Gen_1:27  So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 createdH1254 he him; maleH2145 and femaleH5347 createdH1254 he them.

Gen_5:3  And AdamH121 livedH2421 an hundredH3967 and thirtyH7970 years,H8141 and begatH3205 a son in his own likeness,H1823 after his image;H6754 and calledH7121 (H853) his nameH8034 Seth:H8352

Gen_9:6  Whoso sheddethH8210 man'sH120 blood,H1818 by manH120 shall his bloodH1818 be shed:H8210 forH3588 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 madeH6213 he(H853) man.H120

Num_33:52  Then ye shall drive outH3423 (H853) allH3605 the inhabitantsH3427 of the landH776 from beforeH4480 H6440 you, and destroyH6 (H853) allH3605 their pictures,H4906 and destroyH6 allH3605 their moltenH4541 images,H6754 and quite pluck downH8045 allH3605 their high places:H1116

1Sa_6:5  Wherefore ye shall makeH6213 imagesH6754 of your emerods,H6076 and imagesH6754 of your miceH5909 that marH7843 (H853) the land;H776 and ye shall giveH5414 gloryH3519 unto the GodH430 of Israel:H3478 peradventureH194 he will lightenH7043 (H853) his handH3027 from offH4480 H5921 you, and from offH4480 H5921 your gods,H430 and from offH4480 H5921 your land.H776

1Sa_6:11  And they laidH7760 (H853) the arkH727 of the LORDH3068 uponH413 the cart,H5699 and the cofferH712 withH854 the miceH5909 of goldH2091 and the imagesH6754 of their emerods.H2914

2Ki_11:18  And allH3605 the peopleH5971 of the landH776 wentH935 into the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down;H5422 his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 brake they in piecesH7665 thoroughly,H3190 and slewH2026 (H853) MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196 And the priestH3548 appointedH7760 officersH6486 overH5921 the houseH1004 of the LORD.H3068

2Ch_23:17  Then allH3605 the peopleH5971 went toH935 the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down,H5422 and brake his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 in pieces,H7665 and slewH2026 MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196

Psa_39:6  SurelyH389 every manH376 walkethH1980 in a vain shew:H6754 surelyH389 they are disquietedH1993 in vain:H1892 he heapeth upH6651 riches, and knowethH3045 notH3808 whoH4310 shall gatherH622 them.

Psa_73:20  As a dreamH2472 when one awaketh;H4480 H6974 so, O Lord,H136 when thou awakest,H5782 thou shalt despiseH959 their image.H6754

Eze_7:20  As for the beautyH6643 of his ornament,H5716 he setH7760 it in majesty:H1347 but they madeH6213 the imagesH6754 of their abominationsH8441 and of their detestable thingsH8251 therein: thereforeH5921 H3651 have I setH5414 it farH5079 from them.

Eze_16:17  Thou hast also takenH3947 thy fairH8597 jewelsH3627 of my goldH4480 H2091 and of my silver,H4480 H3701 whichH834 I had givenH5414 thee, and madestH6213 to thyself imagesH6754 of men,H2145 and didst commit whoredomH2181 with them,

Eze_23:14  And that she increasedH3254 H413 her whoredoms:H8457 for when she sa wH7200 menH376 pourtrayedH2707 uponH5921 the wall,H7023 the imagesH6754 of the ChaldeansH3778 pourtrayedH2710 with vermilion,H8350

Amo_5:26  But ye have borneH5375 (H853) the tabernacleH5522 of your MolochH4432 and ChiunH3594 your images,H6754 the starH3556 of your god,H430 whichH834 ye madeH6213 to yourselves.

The word is used of God's image, man's image, molten images, images of things worshipped, images of men and mice. It does not seem to ever mean a mental representation, or of spiritual qualities, or shadow, or phantom, etc... but that's just what I can see. So couldn't this indeed have more of a literal sense than spiritual?

Doesn't Jesus being the image of the invisible prove the invisible can be given form? We know God is spirit and that Jesus is God. Yet Jesus has form and appears as man. Is this not giving form, shape, image, to the invisible God?

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the FULNESS of the deity BODILY.

John says He will appear and we will see Him as He is. What does it mean to 'appear?'

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 01:46:56 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2016, 01:45:57 PM »

Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?

I've considered this verse myself as well. It has been demonstrated correctly here on the forums by the scriptures that every time God appeared in the old testament or was seen of the prophets it was in the form of a man (perhaps minus the burning bush). When Moses saw God's backparts, it was that of a man's. When Isaiah saw the throne of God, there was the likeness of a man above it. Abraham witnessed three men of which one of them was Jehovah. Daniel saw one like a son of man in his vision. So God has possessed this form since before Jesus was born of Mary.

We know no verse is becoming its own interpretation so then is it not possible that this reference of coming into the 'form of a slave' and  'likeness of man' means being emptied of immortality and becoming subject to hunger, physical fatigue, the need to use the bathroom, etc...? I would say it has nothing to do with taking on the form of God which mankind is created after and much more with being made flesh and subject to death.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 01:49:26 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2016, 01:51:21 PM »


This first excerpt is from D4 Hell: 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm -----------------------

The very first word to humanity out of Jesus' mouth after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness was "repent..." (Matt. 4:17). And what does "repent" mean? It means to change. And what have I been teaching since we started bible-truths.com? That God is changing physical, carnal humanity into the spiritual Image of God. That's what our existence is all about. This is the purpose for humanity. This is the next goal in the plan of God. To make carnal, physical humanity into the Spiritual Image of God. It's all about change. God is going to change the entire human race.
v
The Christian sinner's prayer: "I hate my sin and I accept the Lord, Amen" won't cut it in the real world. If we desire to be sons and not ********, then there is much work to be done and accomplished by our God in our lives. God does not create sons in His Spiritual Image by magic or ten second prayers. Here then is part of the process and the words used to describe that process of changing carnal human nature into the Spiritual Image of God, which we call salvation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the Biblestudy 'WORSHIP IN SPIRIT & TRUTH!'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5312.0.html -----

FIRST COMES THE PHYSICAL AND THEN COMES THE SPIRITUAL

1Cor 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

Why is the spiritual better than the physical? Well in this life if you are carnal minded, physically minded, materialistically minded, you will think that the natural is better than the spiritual. Try to tell a 12 or 13 year old that the spiritual things mean more than physical things. I mean come on, you know they are into toys and fun and games and sports and clothes and TV. But itís just so so with the spiritual things. 

But the reason that the spiritual is better than the physical is, itís the only thing thatís going to last, right. The physical is temporary, the natural is temporary and only the spiritual is eonian. But eonian of course leads into eternity. First eonian then eternity. 

Again we come back to the idea that Christ was the only perfect example that shows us how to worship God and how to live. The fact is that this image - this one parable that hasnít been fulfilled yet, making humanity into the image of God, is not yet complete. So do we have an example of what this final ĎImageí will be like?  Yes, we do;

Rom 8:29  For whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His SonÖ

It would be pretty silly to say we are already spiritually formed into the image of God and now all we have to do, is be conformed into the spiritual image of Christ, itís nonsense. They are one in the same. Jesus Christ said, I and My Father are One. You canít be in the spiritual image of GOD, but say, Iím working on the spiritual image of CHRIST aspect. They are One and the same. ďI and My Father are OneĒ (John 10:30). This is a progression Ďto beí conformed into the image of His Son, right? That He might be the first born among many brethren. Look back at 1 John 3.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
v. 3  And every man that hath this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure.

Wow, look at that. So we are called the sons of God. But it does not yet appear what we shall be. But notice that the only ones that shall be, are the ones who purify themselves. They have to purify themselves even as He is pure. See it all comes back to Jesus Christ. Weíve got to conform to His image. 
v
So the more we study this Word of God, the more we see itís all one thing. There is one giant parable and it is this.

Gen 1:26  ďAnd God said, Let Us be making man in Our imageÖĒ

There it is! You know the teaching is, that that has already happened. No it didnít! That is why they donít understand the Bible, because it didnít happen back then. Only the physical aspect was back then. 

First the physical then the spiritual, thatís the principle. If you donít believe that principle, how can you believe the Bible? Why do you think the Bible teaches principles, if they arenít true. If it is true, why donít you believe it? Does the physical come first and then the spiritual? Yes it does. Thatís the principle of God and so Heís making man into Godís image. Are we spirit? No. Is God spirit? Yes. Well if He is making us into HIS image, donít you think this stinking, rotten, carnal minded body is going to have to change, if we are going to be made into His image? We know it hasnít happened yet. Thatís why people kill each other and hate each other and all the misery and stuff we have among society, because they are not in His image. These people are not in the image of God! But one day they will be. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from LOF 12. 'God Judges the World in a Pond.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------------------------------

Concordant Version: "And saying is the Alueim [Hebrew: elohiym, gods or used of the supreme God--plural of elowahh, a deity or the Deity], Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likenessÖ And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

So we see here the same thing we have already discussed with regards to the Greek aorist tense of verbs, as in "For God so lovED the world" versus "For thus God lovES the world." Godís love for the world CONTINUES! And creating man in Godís image also CONTINUES!

Lustful, carnal-minded, sinning, Adam and Eve were no more in the complete image of God at their physical creation than the Apostles were completely converted during the schooling under Christís teaching. It is all an ongoing process. We are even still being converted, and still being perfected, and still becoming more and more like God. How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve where in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!

"For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of His SonÖ" (Rom. 8:29).
 
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).

Presently, only Jesus Christ is the true "Image of God" (II Cor. 4:4).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2016, 04:06:42 PM »

From Kat's post quoting Ray:

"It would be pretty silly to say we are already spiritually formed into the image of God and now all we have to do, is be conformed into the spiritual image of Christ, itís nonsense."

"How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve were in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!"

And as Ray has said many times: "If the church teaches it, it is wrong."

I have yet to find anything the church teaches (not what they say) of any consequence to be true.

"First the physical then the spiritual."
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santgem

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2016, 06:52:47 AM »

Gen 1:26  ďAnd God said, Let Us be making man in Our imageÖĒ


if we to understand clearly the word "image" that God is making us, it is clearly understood that image means both PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY.


PHYSICALLY

And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

1Cor 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.


"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).



as Ray's said "First the physical then the spiritual, thatís the principle"

God does not make man immediately in His image  Spiritually but make man in His image first Physically literal meaning (as of the form of man). Man should have experienced good and evil and repent; and then God transforming man into God's image Spiritually.   


SPIRITUALLY

THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 07:05:49 AM by santgem »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2016, 03:55:23 PM »

Gen 1:26  ďAnd God said, Let Us be making man in Our imageÖĒ


if we to understand clearly the word "image" that God is making us, it is clearly understood that image means both PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY.


PHYSICALLY

And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).

1Cor 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.


"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).



as Ray's said "First the physical then the spiritual, thatís the principle"

God does not make man immediately in His image  Spiritually but make man in His image first Physically literal meaning (as of the form of man). Man should have experienced good and evil and repent; and then God transforming man into God's image Spiritually.   


SPIRITUALLY

THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!

Hi Santa

I agree with you. I don't think anyone was saying that simply because the word 'image' carries a more literal sense that we suddenly do away with the reality that humanity is being confirmed into God's spiritual image through a process. I used that very point to show that paul's usage of 'image' in the new testament is most peculiar and must carry a more literal sense as found in the hebrew meaning of the word.

I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.

At least, this is my impression.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2016, 04:17:36 PM »

Quote
I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.

At least, this is my impression.

God bless,
Alex

I don't understand what you mean Alex. Where did Ray say this?

Are you saying Jesus is now in heaven with a physical body?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2016, 04:55:52 PM »

Quote
I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.

At least, this is my impression.

God bless,
Alex

I don't understand what you mean Alex. Where did Ray say this?

Are you saying Jesus is now in heaven with a physical body?

I linked previous on the first page Dennis.

Here it is again;

--------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Spiritual and moral would imply a more metaphorical or symbolic meaning were as the idea that the word never carries such sense implies that the "form, image, and shape," are more literal in their meaning. At least that is point I think ray is trying to make in saying this.

So what I'm saying is God has a "form/image/shape." This is what He created humanity after and you can find this in the many genesis references that have been shared and paul's usage of the word in the new testaement as well.

I never said Jesus has a 'physical body' because we know He has a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Philipians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I've shared these scriptures because I think they are relevant to this discussion of image, form, and shape.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him [Jesus] dwelleth all the FULNESS of the deity BODILY.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

John 14:8-10
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 05:01:05 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Kat

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Re: Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2016, 10:41:35 PM »


The Son (who became Jesus) was brought forth first in this creation (John 17:5) and given the image/shape/form of a man from the very beginning... as it seems He has the image of a man even when seen in the OT in His glorious form in a vision by Ezekiel.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their (some kind of angel called "living creatures" v.5) heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

H120
'âdâm; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

My thinking is the Son/Jesus was given the shape of a man, not as in physical flesh and blood, but likeness as in figure/form, because that same shape was also what the humans would be created in. So this gives us a God we can relate to, as we recognize the figure of a man and we can relate to being 'like' Him as we can more readily identify with Him. There are also a couple of Scripture that indicate that mankind already resemble or has a likeness to His image/shape, for us this is in a physical form.

1Cor 11:7  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image(G1504) and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

G1504
eikōn; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

James 3:9  With it (the tongue) we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness(G3669) of God.

G3669
homoiōsis; assimilation, that is, resemblance: - similitude.

Gen 5:1  This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness(H1823) of God.

H1823
demûth; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.

Gen 9:6  "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image(H6754) of God He made man.

H6754
tselem; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

I do not believe any of these Scripture that I have presented are speaking of us in a spiritual image, that is a process that only starts when the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, but we all have the same likeness as in form/shape. Just wanted to bring out these Scripture for consideration.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 01:07:22 AM by Kat »
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