> General Discussions
Luke 23:43
Dave in Tenn:
Willem, it's true that there are numerous events in the bible which have no "Second Witness". There was only one thief on the cross who said this, and only one reply from Jesus. It's only recorded in Luke's gospel. But that's not what a 'second witness' IS.
Shechiyn posted that list of scripture to answer Largeli's question: "Is there any other instance where Jesus talked like that? Meaning, is there another verse where Jesus made a statement that began with 'I tell you today..' Where a comma should be placed after 'today'?" Clearly, there is...assuming you believe as I do that Jehovah OT is Jesus NT.
I wanted to point out it is a contradiction with other scripture to say that Jesus told the thief that this very day he would be with Him in paradise...especially if that means the 'common' meaning of 'heaven'. It's theologians who make the contradictions based on ONE VERSE and their traditions. Of course, theologians are not all professional.
I'll go a step or two further, though it may be a small matter. I'm not 100% sure that the thief was the complete 'repentant sinner' that I learned about in Sunday School. Nor am I 100% sure that the paradise Jesus mentioned is a "land of sunshine and raining M&M's". Ray seems to be hinting at this in his reply to the emails which I quoted above. It matters nothing where you put the comma, in this instance. Jesus spoke to and for us all who are asking/hoping to be remembered.
It's difficult to study scripture without ANY preconceptions, but I do my best to read it with as few as possible. I'm a believer, but I question everything I hear to see if it 'be so'. So far, any 'new truth' I've uncovered or has been uncovered for me has been far better than any 'old truth' it has replaced.
I'll only add this. Nobody "shifted the comma"...not even the KJV translators. Greek had no such punctuation. Translators "placed it", and other translators "place it" elsewhere.
Kat:
--- Quote from: willemv on March 25, 2016, 05:28:04 AM ---Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
--- End quote ---
That is an odd comment to make... "I really expected more !" chastising the rest when you did not bring anything significant to the discussion. People come to these discussions and make comments to try an help one another, a second witness is always searched for and very few times (if ever) is there not more on any particular point, sometimes it is just not realized. I feel it's a great help to see what other Scripture people bring to a discussion.
But we are all un-learning so many of the common beliefs of the church that have tripped us up so much and kept us from the truth. That's the great benefit of these threads, we are able to discuss all the aspects of these Scriptures that have been misunderstood. I appreciated every contribution made here.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
stello:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 24, 2016, 11:29:28 PM ---
Therefore besides not being a brethren, he would not have been eligible for the first resurrection, no more than John the Baptist was.
Do you mean John was not chosen to be part of the first resurrection? What about Abraham? Doesn't the scripture talk about Abraham believing God and it was imparted to him as righteousness? Just need a little help understanding what makes one eligible to be in the first resurrection. Thanks!
stello
--- End quote ---
Mike Gagne:
Hi Stello,
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Luke 10:23-24 (KJV)
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Jesus hadn't been to the cross yet
Hebrews 7:19 (KJV)
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:22 (KJV)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 8:6 (KJV)
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises
Michael
Kat:
--- Quote from: stello on March 25, 2016, 09:16:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on March 24, 2016, 11:29:28 PM --- Therefore besides not being a brethren, he would not have been eligible for the first resurrection, no more than John the Baptist was.
--- End quote ---
Do you mean John was not chosen to be part of the first resurrection? What about Abraham? Doesn't the scripture talk about Abraham believing God and it was imparted to him as righteousness? Just need a little help understanding what makes one eligible to be in the first resurrection. Thanks!
stello
--- End quote ---
Hi Stello,
Yes none of the patriarch, prophets or even John the Baptist will be in the first resurrection, because as Michael showed the Scripture they all died before Christ was sacrificed and did not receive the promise.
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
Nobody will/can be in the first Resurrection accept "through" Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
2Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The God of the OT that we know as the Savior of the world was not yet born into the world for those in the old covenant time. It was only by the life and death of Christ as the perfect sacrifice that any will be saved. Jesus is the only way, He is the Good Shepherd and the Door to the few now and the rest later.
John 10:9 I am the Door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jon 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
v. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
We must know Christ, just as He knows us and that is only possible if you have heard the gospel message of His life and death and resurrection as the Savior of the world. Only now since Christ came and the new covenant replaced the old are a few being brought/drawn to Christ to receive His spirit.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! He has blessed us in the Messiah with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm, 4 just as He chose us in the Messiah before the creation of the universe to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption to Himself through Jesus the Messiah, according to the pleasure of His will, 6 so that we would praise His glorious grace that He gave us in the Beloved One. 7 In union with Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our offenses, according to the riches of God's grace 8 that He lavished on us, along with all wisdom and understanding, 9 when He made known to us the secret of His will. This was according to His plan that He set forth in the Messiah 10 to usher in the fullness of the times and to bring together in the Messiah all things in heaven and on earth. 11 In the Messiah we were also chosen when we were predestined according to the purpose of the one who does everything that He wills to do, 12 so that we who had already fixed our hope on the Messiah might live for His praise and glory. 13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems His own possession for His praise and glory. (ISV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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