Luke 23:43

[stello]

Ok i understand now, thanks!

[indianabob]

Well said Kat, thanks.

So now if you please, what will be the situation when King David is resurrected at a future time remembering that he David was King, only to find the Lord Jesus sitting upon David's throne in Jerusalem. Is that a spiritually discerned event or will Jesus be visibly on that throne for all to see?

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Bob, just in my own words..

Will Jesus really be sitting on a throne made by the hands of man?
Is not his throne already established?  Where is his throne?  I have seen Him and I know that will be hard for you or others to believe and I am not boasting in myself but in the Lord. At my conversion I seen the very same light that the Apostle Paul talked about. But did I see a man standing before me, NO.I am starting to  see Him in everything.  Will king David see a man literally sitting on a physical throne, I don't think so. No Jesus has a place where he sits on His throne and all those that come to him must come down off of his throne and let The King sit in His rightfully place.

I believe that the few can see Him and thats because they can look back. As the apostle John said, I turned and I saw, he seen in the spirit and Jesus Is Spirit. Did all whom he has chosen see Him, I think in the spirit they seen Him and all those yet to come will see Him in the spirit...


He rules in the kingdom of men ( where is His kingdom, its in the heart of man ) and none can stay His Hand. And how does He rule, he rules because His throne is in the heart of man and he will sit on His Throne In ALL. And then He will be ALL IN ALL...

When they were putting the nails in His hands who do you think he seen?

Remember just in my words!

Michael

[Mike Gagne]

Maybe I was wrong there a little , by not adding this!

The heavens declare the Glory of God!!  I guess they all can see, but will they know Its God?

Michael

[Nelson Boils]

Hi Michael,

A word of advice:It is not wise to give "your own words" or understanding to a question asked and then turn around and say "maybe I wrong a little."

The fact that you say "maybe I wrong a little" proves that you are not 100% sure about what you are talking about.

[Mike Gagne]

Hi Shechiyn,

Quote from: Shechiyn on Today at 06:24:10 PM
Hi Michael,

A word of advice:It is not wise to give "your own words" or understanding to a question asked and then turn around and say "maybe I wrong a little."

The fact that you say "maybe I wrong a little" proves that you are not 100% sure about what you are talking about

.



Ok Thats Fine, Show me where I am wrong? I am 100 percent sure you can't !!

Maybe I could Have said that different?  Maybe  I could have said,  I could also add this because it was  was wrong for me not to !

Anyhow I am 100 % percent sure thats what I wrote and I also said it was in my words. Take it as you like thats why this is called a discussion!

I see that most don't like to it when a uneducated man has some thing to say. Just because I haven't been on this forum for years does not mean that God has been dealing with me only a short time. Tell me where there is something that doesn't line up with the word and then I will gladly show you from the scriptures that indeed It does. I wander if the apostle after years of study the word had to quote every scripture and tell it exactly as it was written, or did they just talk plainly? All bet in there plain talk they may had said somethings that were a little odd, but I also bet there was not much doubt about the truth they spoke!!

Back to my statement
Quote

Maybe I wrong there a little.

The heavens declare the Glory of God!!  I guess they all can see, but will they know Its God

( ( if thats all you got for anything I said was wrong then I am ok with that ) Not bad for grade 6 education. 

What was I wrong in  there?  The only thing I can see i was wrong about was to not have it in my first statement !

Maybe I wrong there a little

The heavens declare the Glory of God!! ( and yes they do! )  I guess they all can see, ( and yes they can see, look around you ) but will they know Its God ? ( No they don't , they are blind to it ) 

Thank you Shechiyn

In Christ Michael

[Kat]

Well said Kat, thanks.

So now if you please, what will be the situation when King David is resurrected at a future time remembering that he David was King, only to find the Lord Jesus sitting upon David's throne in Jerusalem. Is that a spiritually discerned event or will Jesus be visibly on that throne for all to see?

Hi Bob,

I do not believe there would be a physical throne either, what seems to be meant is Christ has a symbolic seat/position as the King with authority to rule and judge. And as King of kings His 'throne' is over the whole world.

Matt 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Christ's throne and the throne of the Father are the same and it is on the same throne that those who are chosen and faithful unto death are finally to sit on as well... and it means that this authority is from the top down, the Father having all authority and gives it to whom He chooses.

Rev 3:21  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now as for David, I believe He will be resurrected with the patriarchs and the prophets and many other kings that ruled the earth and each will have to give account before Christ and there will certainly be those that He will recognize for their living a righteous life, relative to this world anyway.

1Cor 3:13  each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.

When you consider all the people that will be resurrected back to life, there will be a need for some people to serve Christ and the elect on earth... I mean there would be a need for administrators to make up the physical aspect of the kingdom and His government on earth. Maybe that is what is meant by this Scripture.

Matt 8:11  I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,

There are many kings, as well as David, that have proven from their lives that they ruled in righteousness when they lived on earth. I believe overall rulership is for Christ and the elect, so I don't know if there will actually be physical 'kings' on earth in the next age. But I think there could be many serving Christ physically on earth as they learn the truth of the gospel.

As I have said there will be many righteous people of faith to be raised from OT times and they will certainly not need God's wrath, but will need to learn of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is just some thoughts I have on this from what I see in Scripture.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[octoberose]

I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
  Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
  Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy.  I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life?  I'm just perplexed.
   As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons. 
 

[Nelson Boils]

Imagine Ray spending 10years+ on his writing and at the end of it all he says,"maybe I wrong there a little."

Imagine Jesus teaching his disciples for 3yrs and at the end he says,"maybe I wrong there a little."

Imagine a teacher teaching 1+1=2 then at the end the teacher says,"maybe I wrong there a little."
This would prove that the teacher is not "100 percent" sure of his own understanding.

Michael,you say"Thats Fine, Show me where I am wrong? I am 100 percent sure you can't!"

I didn't say you are wrong.If I did,quote me,"I am 100 percent sure you can't."
You are the one that said you MIGHT be wrong.Not me!I'll remind YOU what YOU said about your own post:"maybe I wrong the a little."

So perhaps you need to convince yourself that you are not wrong!

[Mike Gagne]

Well Shechiyn, Yes Ray was a educated man, a man with a degree, and he himself said he had to go back and make correction, so I guess I am ok with it as well.

And I certainly am not a man with out a canal heart.
  Just show me where I was wrong in what I  was referencing to and I will be fine with that.
 


In Christ Michael

[Dave in Tenn]

I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
  Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
  Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy.  I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life?  I'm just perplexed.
   As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons. 

If there is a solid chronology in this, it is that Jesus died, bodies came out of death, they stayed in the tombs (not the same as the 'graves' we are accustomed to in the US and most of the west--more akin to the 'graveyards') until after His resurrection, then went into the city.  But there may not be an exact chronology for the 'event' of their being raised out of 'sleep'.  In any event, I don't think this is the 'Resurrection of the dead' that Jesus experienced and those in Him will experience in like manner.  People rose from sleep both before and after this event.  Maybe, from time to time, it STILL happens.  They did not raise with incorruptible bodies.  I don't know if this is the point you were questioning, but thought I'd slip it in here.

As for the Old Testament saints not being in the first resurrection, here's a couple of additional verses to consider:

Mat 20:14  Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15  Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Joh_20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 

Are the saints and prophets of Old included among those who have NOT SEEN Him, yet believed?  I think so.   

The Chosen are under a New Covenant, one which is not in accord with the Old, and is Superior.  The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up...  There is a Divine order to all these things.  Looking at it both practically and Spiritually, this is the right order that He's established.  It is the most powerful order, and the one of most benefit to all concerned...that's everybody. 



 

[Dave in Tenn]

Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM.  We're not going to have it on the open forum.

[Mike Gagne]

Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM.  We're not going to have it on the open forum.

Sorry Dave and others your right

[Kat]

I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
  Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
  Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy.  I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life?  I'm just perplexed.
   As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons. 

I do believe that those people raised back to life at the death of Jesus, was a profound event to mark of the magnitude of what had just happened. And I do believe they were believers, saints and many translations have it, who were given a physical life again (as were others resurrected by Jesus and even the apostles lives), but they lived on to die as all people do. But it would seem to have been a great witness to the believers at the time and even for us now, that Jesus' death was no ordinary death, and God signified it with the raising up of some that believed in Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !

When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.

Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim

The SUM of God's word is truth. Its really not hard at all to find witnesses to the idea that no man has currently ascended to heaven but our Lord. There are many witnesses to the fact that when a man dies, he is dead, not in paradise. He awaits the ressurection.


Psalm 6:4-5 Turn, Lord! Rescue me; save me because of Your faithful love. For there is no remembrance of You in death; who can thank You in the grave?

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

Death is likened to sleep in the scriptures.

"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers...

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...

Even Jesus likens the state of the dead to that of sleep:

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." (John 11:11-13).

When do the dead awaken from their sleep where they know not anything? Instantly as the theif being immediately in paradise?
(Notice too that like God, Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit likens death to sleep)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, He will raise all the dead back to life.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The dead really are dead. They aren't up in heaven or down in hell. The whole of scripture testifies to this truth, both old and new testament.
Jesus also said no man has gone up to heaven, not even the theif!

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man.

Do you think Jesus knows what He's talking about?

And just incase it isn't already clear, the Resurrection isn't a past thing:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Its still future, that 'LAST trumpet' (See above verses for reference) when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom!

This is precisely why NO VERSE is at all becoming its OWN interpretation! That in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2Pe_1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."

Psa_119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."

Mat_18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co_13:1  This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

In Christ,
Alex

[Chris]

Thanks Kat for all your insight, it helps a lot

[virginiabm]

HI Bt family, I was just rereading this thread and I was thinking about the ones who rose from the dead after Christ's resurrection. We know that the Holy Spirit has not come at this time, so I'm wondering are the saints that rose after Jesus did, could they be a part of the 120 in the upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 1: 13.14 gives a few names, but not all names, so could it be? I also have been preplexed about this as Octoberose has, but sitting here meditating on it, this thought came to my mind and I wanted to share it with y'all. They surely would make good witnesses to the resurrection, especially if they had been dead awhile.
These are just my hunble thoughts on the matter.

     Your sister in christ Jesus,
       Virginia Miller

[Kat]

Hi Virginia, I think you have hit on something there.

Isn't that amazing to think about... that there were those followers of Christ that died sometime 'before' His resurrection, but when resurrected back to a physical life when Christ was crucified they could then go on to receive the Holy Spirit. So they too could partake in the first resurrection at Christ's return.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[microlink]

HI Bt family, I was just rereading this thread and I was thinking about the ones who rose from the dead after Christ's resurrection. We know that the Holy Spirit has not come at this time, so I'm wondering are the saints that rose after Jesus did, could they be a part of the 120 in the upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 1: 13.14 gives a few names, but not all names, so could it be? I also have been preplexed about this as Octoberose has, but sitting here meditating on it, this thought came to my mind and I wanted to share it with y'all. They surely would make good witnesses to the resurrection, especially if they had been dead awhile.
These are just my hunble thoughts on the matter.

     Your sister in christ Jesus,
       Virginia Miller

Hi all,
What about the patriarchs and prophets of old? Could it include them? It was never clear to me if they would be in the first resurrection or not. We are told they would not precede us. So will they be in the first resurrection???

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[Kat]

Hi Joe, thinking about those people raised at the time of Christ's death, they were not just random people, they were His followers, they already knew Him, they were "saints."

Mat 27:50  Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice again and died.
v. 51  Suddenly the curtain in the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks were split open,
v. 52  tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
v. 53  After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs and went into the Holy City and appeared to many people.

But since these saints had died BEFORE the Holy Spirit had come, they could not obtain the first resurrection... that would include the patriarchs and prophets of old. Though the prophets and patriarchs knew of a Messiah to come, they had never heard the name Jesus, much less about His life, the gospel message, so they could not accepted Him as their Lord and Savior.

Rom 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So it seems that those saints physical resurrection back to life not only marked the momentous event, Christ's death, but also gave a few of His followers the chance to receive the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which was not given until AFTER His ascension at Pentecost.

John 16:7  But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.

John 15:26  And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

Rom 8:9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

mercy, peace and love
Kat