Only the blind would deny.

[rick]

In my opinion one would have to be spiritually deaf, dumb and blind to deny that these verses in 2 Timothy are not upon us.

2 Timothy 3New King James Version (NKJV)

Perilous Times and Perilous Men


3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

May God help us all to withstand such perilous times as we are living in.

God bless.

[AwesomeSavior]

Did you ever get a chance to see the movie "The Big Short"? It's rather crude with the language, but it's all about the 2008 financial crisis, and how it's starting all over again.

[rick]

Did you ever get a chance to see the movie "The Big Short"? It's rather crude with the language, but it's all about the 2008 financial crisis, and how it's starting all over again.

Hi Awesomesavior,

NO, I have not seen the movie but I do see there is something horribly wrong in today's America.

The corruption is seen and felt everywhere , it's in our face today with boldness.

God bless.

[Kat]

In my opinion one would have to be spiritually deaf, dumb and blind to deny that these verses in 2 Timothy are not upon us.

2 Timothy 3New King James Version (NKJV)

Perilous Times and Perilous Men


3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

May God help us all to withstand such perilous times as we are living in.

God bless.

Rick, so you think that Paul is saying that those things are mainly going on at the very last part or very end of this present age? Look at any one of those character flaws and see if it does not apply to the carnal human nature in general and not just to a particular time in this age that people do those things. Yes people are doing all those things mentioned there, but they always have, not just now. Look at some other Scripture that refer to the "last days" and see how they compare and what the time frame is.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v. 2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

If you will notice in the first verse there is speaking of "time past" or in the past age God spoke by the prophets. Then it goes on to speak of "these last days," it's talking about this present age, now God is speaking to His elect through Christ. Now was he just speaking of the elect that would be at the very end of this age? Those are the same "last days" here is Hebrews spoken of by in 2nd Timothy. Here is another verse.

1Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Paul had been speaking about the Israelites...

1Cor 10:5  But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
v. 6  Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

So this passage is speaking of "these things" that happened to the Israelites and Paul goes on to say it was for "our admonition" - the elect's, all the elect in the age, "upon whom the ends of the ages have come"... the end of the ages of man's rule of this world. Man has had dominion over the earth since his creation, now this is the last age for that before Christ returns to rule.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Here is more Scripture that show Christ was to come in this present age to suffer and die "once at the end of the ages," the last of these ageS.

Heb 9:24  For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

He came in this present age, "these last times for you,"for all the elect down through this age, to began His church.

1Peter 1:19  but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
v. 20  He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Just trying to show that this age is the end times, the end of the ages, as far as I can tell anyway from what these Scripture indicate.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi Kat,

I'm not suggesting that these scriptures are exclusively for the last day generation, these things have already been going on because the carnal mind causes such things but these scriptures are unprecedented in our times unlike any other time.

I also agree with your addition of scriptures as well.

God bless.

[AwesomeSavior]

Rick:

Yes indeed. The level of corruption and pervertedness in this culture is unprecedented. I just saw where Curt Schilling was fired from ESPN because he spoke out against transgendered bathrooms. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that this culture would sink so low in its morals. I will never watch that perverted network again. That movie I mentioned (The Big Short) goes into detail regarding the massive corruption of our financial system that led to the 2008 crisis. It's the kind of movie you can watch multiple times and learn a little bit more each time.

Dean

[rick]

Hi Dean,

I heard the same thing about Curt being fired too as a result of his beliefs, quite sickening if you ask me.

We are now being forced to adhere to discussing laws that are an abomination before God , all in the name of liberalism .

It's frustrating to see and hear of all these perversion becoming law and many of us disagree with what the politician's are doing but I always remember God knew these things will be.

I'm convinced Christ is coming back soon as the world really is upside down.

God bless.

[Kat]

Hi Kat,

I'm not suggesting that these scriptures are exclusively for the last day generation, these things have already been going on because the carnal mind causes such things but these scriptures are unprecedented in our times unlike any other time.

I also agree with your addition of scriptures as well.

God bless.

I think a lot of people believe what you said there, that I put in bold. I have taken an interest in history and have read a few things and all things in consideration there's no time in history that I would rather live in than the present. There have been so many many atrocities throughout history that cruel rulers have use terror to gain control of public... we know about Hitler, well I could give you a long list of others that were equally as evil (I actually had a list in a recent thread of some of the most disturbingly large death tolls from these type rulers http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16552.0.html ). I would think the people that were so unfortunate to live at the time and place where those horrific things happened would have a better claim as to living in unprecedented evil times. 

I'm not saying that there is not plenty of horrible things happening in this world now, but I think we tend to focus on those things that we actually see and hear about happening in the world. Perhaps every generation has had reason to think they were living in the worst of times, and from what I have read in history they are justified in thinking so.

Another thing is I would think if you were watching and taking note of any political system workings in the world, at any time in history, you would find out about enough perversion to choke on. I have come to realize that if I truly want to be separate from the world, then I cannot continue to subject myself, by thinking on worldly things. So I do not keeping watching and thinking on what is happening in this totally unscrupulous governmental system.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

great advice Kat,
We can't change it we can only pray for patience to endure.
In some ways I think that many folks in these harshly ruled nations are better off dead.
Their suffering is ended and there is a better future ahead for them.
Think of the joy that will be theirs when they awake...
Indiana Bob

[Porter]

Kat I cant help but be reminded of 2Co_5:7 after what you said.

2Co_5:7  for we walk by faith, not by sight.

After thinking and doing a bit more studying about this subject, along with comments made in other threads stating similar things to what you said, (thanks Dave  ) I think I now see the errors in my thinking.

So now I'm not really sure Ray was teaching the literal "end of the world" as opposed to the beginning of judgment on America.  God's Church is made up of "the many called, but few chosen", and there being "many" in the US, it makes a bit more sense to me now how the US is involved in prophecy.

Anyways here is where Ray spoke a bit about what I'm trying to say.

http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

WHEN GENTILES ARE JEWS AND JEWS ARE NOT JEWS
[Is American Part of Prophecy?]

The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:
<blockquote> "For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God..." (I Pet. 4:17).
</blockquote> If the "House of God" needed judgment in the days of the Apostles, how much more judgment does it need today? And what did Paul prophesy would happen in this "GREAT House" in our day, "in the LATTER TIMES?" Let's read it from the source:
<blockquote> "Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1-2).
</blockquote> And this:
<blockquote> "This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away... EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).
</blockquote> Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world of mankind in general. Oh no He isn't:
It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such."
Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD which has done these things and continues to do them. It is the "CHURCH of the Living God." It is: "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" who commits spiritual fornication by going to the "Egypts" of this world and making alliances with the nations rather than trusting in God.
And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God's Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23).
--------------------------------------------

I guess what was tripping me up was the use of phrases like "the last days" in the KJV and many other translations. When ever these "last days" are they would have to be sometime after the "departure" of the Apostles, and does not necessarily mean the end of the world. The second witness Ray gave helps a lot.

Makes me wonder, what is it about the end of the world we people are so fascinated about? Many have been preaching the literal end for centuries now, so what is so different about this time? I too cannot help to ask "when?" as did the Apostles.

Luk 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:8  And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luk 17:23  And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
Luk 17:24  For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I may be wrong, but I'm beginning to think it's not very important to know the signs as to when He will come, because He has always been here within us, at least it is my personal hope that He is within me.

[rick]

Political systems have always been corrupt but what makes me think these scriptures are unprecedented in our times are the attitudes of the common people.

There is wide spread of disobedience to parents to day unlike any other time , men lovers of self rather than of God  I can hardly go anywhere without seeing piercings of metal on faces of both men and women, heroin use in thousands of families , lover's of self rather than of God.

I think our times reflect these scriptures more so today where everything is corrupted without restraints or regards for anyone by both our political leaders and the citizens.

I would be frightened to be a child today with most mothers I see out there.

I don't believe other generation have gone through what our generation is subjected to on the level it is.

I certainly hope Christ returns very soon and all can start to learn righteousness and live Godly lives.

That is my hope in Christ.

God bless.

[Dave in Tenn]

Porter, I think you are getting there.

"Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world of mankind in general. Oh no He isn't:
It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such."
Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD which has done these things and continues to do them. It is the "CHURCH of the Living God." It is: "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" who commits spiritual fornication by going to the "Egypts" of this world and making alliances with the nations rather than trusting in God.
And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God's Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23)."

People who use this scripture to describe the world are simply looking in the wrong place.  I'm not saying (nor did Ray) that the world is a shining sphere of goodness.  But Peter was NOT talking about the world, but the "church".  If one can't see it in the CHURCH, then one is TRULY blind. 

"If the "LIGHT" in YOU (collectively AND individually?) be darkness, how great is the darkness?"  And it is this darkness that the "church" has introduced into the world, as well as failing to reveal the True Light--hiding it under a bushel.  Whatever the world knows about our God, it knows from the "church", that MOST WORLDLY of institutions.  From such, turn. 

   

[rick]

Is Ray not referring to America as the house of God and if so does 2Timothy not apply to America only and not the world at large ?

But in the house of God many are called but few are chosen , Christendom represents the many and those with Gods truths represent the few.

God bless.

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll just point out that not only are there more than one "Americas", there are more than one Nations in each of them.  All of them are "christian".  And I'll leave it at that.