Proverbs 18:21 , Ephesians 4:27

[Miranda_78]

Hello Everyone,

I have 2 topic questions
Ephesians 4:27
Don't give the devil any opportunity [to work].

My question is, what happens when we give foothold to the devil to work? And how can we rebuke him not to work his evil any longer if we did.


Regarding Proverbs 18:21
What happens when people around us speak death, rather than life, cursing, and speaking negatively weather it be in the workfield, at school, or at home with those who are not serving God? We obviously can't cut off our ears. So, how can we deal with these things? And if we are around such things can we easily be affected.

Thanks.

[rick]

Hi Miranda,

I could not help to think on your first question where scripture says ( Don't ) give the devil , what can we Do on our own ?

We don't have free will and neither does the devil, If the spirit of God is not in one then the devil is that one's spiritual father.

Theses will not resist the devil but those who have the spirit of God can resist the devil and he will flee but we cannot do this on our own, it takes God to do these things.

As far as your other question we must remember that we are here for an experience of good and evil, so shall we accept good at the hand of God but not evil ?

Also remember we cannot experience anything until the appointed time so what ever we experience God knows about it because He planned it for us, one can say God in His wisdom has customized our life for our own good.

Be thankful for all things, ok, easier said than done believe me I know.

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Miranda_78 -

I understand that these Scriptures applies to the called out called out Elect of The Lord:

Deuteronomy 28:13
And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

Job19:9
He hath stripped me of my glory, and taken the crown from my head.

Psalm 23:5
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Psalm 27:6
And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord.

Psalm 140:7
O God the Lord, the strength of my salvation, thou hast covered my head in the day of battle.

George.

[Kat]

Hello Everyone,

I have 2 topic questions
Ephesians 4:27
Don't give the devil any opportunity [to work].

My question is, what happens when we give foothold to the devil to work? And how can we rebuke him not to work his evil any longer if we did.


Regarding Proverbs 18:21
What happens when people around us speak death, rather than life, cursing, and speaking negatively weather it be in the workfield, at school, or at home with those who are not serving God? We obviously can't cut off our ears. So, how can we deal with these things? And if we are around such things can we easily be affected.

Thanks.

1Thess 4:11  Make it your aim to live a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to earn your own living, just as we told you before.
v. 12  In this way you will win the respect of those who are not believers, and you will not have to depend on anyone for what you need. (GNB)

Miranda, we should certainly try to live a godly life, this is a personal endeavor to please God. We are living in this world, among people who do not know or serve God and we cannot expect them to understand or accept what we believe. So maybe it's best to live the way we think is right - quietly, and mind our own business, as Paul suggests.

Php 2:14  Do all things without complaining and disputing,
v. 15  that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

We should always be very considerate of others, even in their ignorance, not agreeing with it, but not taking upon ourselves to condemn them either. It is not up to us to correct this world, but to have kindness and compassion for our fellow man, as the most important commandment of course is to love and obey God, but what comes next only to that... "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt 22:39).

I feel that we can bring persecution on ourselves by coming across to others as self righteous... not saying this is what you are doing, that's just one example. Maybe it's pride, temper, defensiveness or a tendency to be sarcastic, whatever it is, things like that can irk others.

If you are around people that curse or maybe say crude things to you, maybe try to ignore them or even avoid them if possible. But you can't change them and to make a comment can make yourself a target for ridicule, also it takes two to have an argument. Maybe you think telling somebody about a fault helps them know what they should change, wrong, in their reproach for what you said they will likely turn on you and taunt, mock or deride you... the devil uses all sorts of means to get to us. So be careful with your comments.

Matt 7:6  "Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you." (ISV)

None of this may apply to your situation, it's just general advice.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Miranda_78]

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate it, God Bless you all.

[willemv]

Sorry guys , I cannot just let that one slide.

Before I say why ,I will tell you a little story in a lighter vain . I will follow the example of the apostle Paul , I know a man who travelled the countryside on business and as in the US the roads are sometimes very long and quiet and boring when he came upon a real one-horse town with some ramshakcle  houses and a surprising beatiful church building ,he decided to stay over and booked into some dilapitated bed and breakfast place. The place was very quiet ,the only sounds to be heard were coming from the hotel . It appeared that all the townsfolk and the surrounding farmers gathered always there in the only bar. So our traveler keen to find out what type of people you find in these remote areas and what makes them tick went there as well ,sat down and ordered a drink.
The topics of discussion centered mostly about farming and hunting experiences and it was not long before our traveler , himself an experienced man on some issues, was drawn into the conversation . This went on and as it happened sometimes there comes a lull in the conversation when all these philosophers reflectively look into their glasses. Our traveler took this opportunity to make a rather startling comment considering the trent of the conversation . He said : "fellers , I really as a visitor enjoy the opportunity to meet you guys and swop stories , however there is one thing I find quite disturbing and that is that you guys don't seem to hold the name of our Lord in high esteem as most of you use IT liberally in vain and that is apart from the general foul language which seems to be an important part of your vocab."

Next scene you can imagine : deathly silence ! Eventually a huge redneck situated next to our traveler jumps up , slaps our traveler on the shoulder (who happened to be only of slightly build) and says : Joe , I am so glad you brought this up because it has been worrying me for some years but I never had the guts to take them on . Well, big relieve for our man , who then bought the next round  and had a fruitful dicussion.

What is the moral of the story ? Simple , the Bible says we must witness" timely and untimely" ( Can't lay my hands on the exact scripture right now )

God bless and may He give us all the conviction and courage to be living and speaking witnesses to the glory of His name

[Extol]

Howdy Willem,

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking someone to watch their language around us, but I don't do it. Different situations may require different actions...if someone is spewing obscenities in a daycare center, it might be worthwhile to say something. But a bar???

Again, I don't think it's wrong necessarily, but perhaps not always wise. And it's certainly not our duty to go around and try to reform people. We'll just fall into that church trap of thinking it's our job to save the world (which it will be, eventually, but not now). If we go to a bar and ask folks to watch their language, and once in a great while have results like our traveler, what next? I'll maybe start thinking I'm somebody special, and I can change the world... Maybe next I will go to a brothel and tell them they're living in sin. Look out!

Let me point out that I'm not HIDING my faith by not speaking out against the way other people live. In my work, I come in contact with a lot of "party" people. Most of the time I try to avoid them, but when I am around them, I "say" a lot by not drinking or swearing. They probably think I'm a dull fuddy duddy, but they definitely see I'm different. If someone wants to talk about why I'm different, Id be  happy to. But who among them wants to? They are there to smoke and carouse and have a high old time.

I think it's a bit foolish to go into an environment like that and expect people to conform to what YOU want. I chose to do the kind of work i do, so i accept that there are a lot of people like that. They may think I'm boring, but they don't insist I get drunk with them or start swearing. Neither do I insist they stop drinking and stop swearing. There are plenty of places to go and plenty of people to be around where you won't get that kind of language and behavior.

Lastly, I would be interested in seeing that verse you were talking about.... It is not very convincing to tell your story, say the moral is "simple. The Bible says..." and not reference. I heard things like that in church. (Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven, did you know?) I did an internet search for "timely and untimely witnessing" and I don't know what it is you meant.

[rick]

I agree with Extol because the natural mind cares nothing about God or His laws.

New American Standard Bible

because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so],

God must drag a person to Christ. Men in a bar drinking certainly do not have God on their mind but rather a good time in the flesh and not the spirit.

God bless.

[Kat]

Willemv, I will say you make a good point that if we are in conversation with others and fail to disagree with something being said that we are totally in disagreement with, it may appear that we are in agreement with them. But as Jesse was saying, certainly you would expect foul language in a bar... maybe it's a better idea to give care to where you go.

Now many times people post on here and make mention of a Scripture reference without chapter and verse and that is fine, because I either know what they are referring to, or can look it up easily by their paraphrase of it. For me it is of utmost important to have Scripture to verify whatever is being said, as we know all too well the need to pay close attention to all the words, even then the translation must be taken into consideration. I myself have thought quotes I knew were Scriptural only to find out they were not, and I certainly realize my memory is not always accurate... so I need to see a Scripture and a 2nd witness is very good even necessary as well.

Now you gave a interesting story with the very principle of it being that the Bible says we must witness" timely and untimely".  I like Jesse could find no such reference to that in Scripture, maybe if you found the verse in question it would give your opinion credence. But there is more than one way (speaking out) to bear witness of the truth, notice what Christ said.

John 10:25  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

John 5:36  But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Jesus seems to be saying there that actions speak louder than words. For me personally it is a great task, not without shortcomings even with the help of the Spirit, to set a proper example to those around me, all the time and certainly not just as a show, but in all sincerity.

1Peter 3:8  To conclude: you must all have the same attitude and the same feelings; love one another, and be kind and humble with one another.
v. 9  Do not pay back evil with evil or cursing with cursing; instead, pay back with a blessing, because a blessing is what God promised to give you when He called you.
v. 10  As the scripture says, "If you want to enjoy life and wish to see good times, you must keep from speaking evil and stop telling lies.
v. 11  You must turn away from evil and do good; you must strive for peace with all your heart.
v. 12  For the Lord watches over the righteous and listens to their prayers; but He opposes those who do evil."
v. 13  Who will harm you if you are eager to do what is good?
v. 14  But even if you should suffer for doing what is right, how happy you are! Do not be afraid of anyone, and do not worry.
v. 15  But have reverence for Christ in your hearts, and honor Him as Lord. Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you,
v. 16  but do it with gentleness and respect. Keep your conscience clear, so that when you are insulted, those who speak evil of your good conduct as followers of Christ will become ashamed of what they say. (GNB)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Maybe this is the scripture Willem was suggesting?

2Ti 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5  But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Whether or not this includes "the world" is open to question.  I don't much think so, but how deeply into the "church" one should strive is addressed elsewhere in Scripture, as this one is not it's own interpretation.

[willemv]

No, I don't frequent bars at all .

At that specific event there were no drunk people ,just a social gathering ,the only available one in town . Actually quite a few of them were "Israelites "believing they were "the daughters of My dispersed from beyond the rivers of Ethiopia; Zeph 3:10

Sorry about the confusion about the verse . It is 2 Tim 4:1-2 KJV-"-I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom;Preach the word; be instant in season,out of season;reprove,rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine". English is only my third language , I read my Bible in Afrikaans ,I pray in Dutch and I made a literal translation from Afrikaans into English ,that is where the words timely and untimely came from instead of in season and out of season. No wonder you could not find it.Sorry again!

Jesus was also accused of consorting with publicans and sinners (Mat 9:11)but when Jesus heard that He said unto them :they that be whole need not a physician,but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice:for I am not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance,(Mat 9 :12-13) .The word "mercy"here actually means lovingkindness in case you might think this verse is inappropriate and also the words "to repentance " do not actually appear in the original text but the inclusion in the KJV does not alter the meaning ,only makes it easier to understand. I have always understood that if I have been drawn by the Father to follow Jesus I am also a disciple and also have the responsibility to share the truth which I have been given by His Spirit.If I have to wait on some worldly person to ask me , it will most likely not happen . If we love our neighbour don't we have a responsibility toward him /her?

To quote the words of Jesus when He said His works bore witness of Him is not truly relevant to the argument that our example bears witness to the world.His works were healing the sick, the blind, the cripple,leprosy and raising the dead. Do we have those works ? He also rebuked the pharisees and others for their hypocrisy . As a result He was persecuted . Are we being persecuted?
And He said : Remember the word that I said unto you , The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted Me , they will also persecute you. John 15 :20 . I must say that this worries me personally to the extend that I am not even sure I am of the elect. Does this not bother you guys also?

Do not be ashamed to preach His word so that He will not be ashamed of you when you appear before the Father.( I must really get e-sword on my computer to make the references easier )

God bless you all , Wim

[Kat]

Willemv, well it is certain that I cannot judge you for what you feel lead by the Spirit to do. But I do not believe it is needful for all believers to witness to the world about the gospel - which is the teaching of who the Christ was. Yes the Apostles themselves did need to spread the gospel message, but now, at this time, virtually the whole world knows of the Christ... do we really need to give witness of the gospel? and hasn't the world been blinded to the knowledge of the truth and only the few are having their eyes opened by God Himself?  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44). another thing is how in this vast world could one believer find another unless God brings us together... doesn't the forum serve that very purpose to discuss these truths with like minded believers? So we don't need to seek others to witness to.

But certainly we are a light in this world and our actions/works speak a great deal as to what we believe, without saying/preaching a word.

Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
v. 15  Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
v. 16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Teaching however carries "a stricter judgment" (James 3:1) and should not be entered lightly. What I'm trying to say is that I feel it is a very special commission to preach the gospel to the world, certainly the Apostles were appointed that task and I believe Ray was as well. Now in 2nd Timothy Paul was encouraging Timothy who he had personally taught and called "a beloved son" (2Tim 1:1) speaking to him about the many difficulties there was to be an evangelist, which Timothy was.

1Thess 3:2  and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,

1Co 4:16  Therefore I urge you, imitate me.
v. 17  For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

So yes if you believe you're spiritual mature and want to share this knowledge with others, maybe that is your special calling... but the body of Christ has all manners of workers and we should not feel all have the responsibility to be a teacher. God has given each of us the gift He wants us to have and that may take many years to develop. If God has appointed you for something then it will be done in/through you.

Eph 4:11  It was he who "gave gifts to people"; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
v. 12  He did this to prepare all God's people for the work of Christian service, in order to build up the body of Christ.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Willem, there's at least one "issue" that comes to mind from what you said.  There are those who are convinced they are being 'persecuted', but what is really happening is that they are reaping the fruit of behaving badly by preaching badly "in the name of the Lord".  We've all either "been them", or "met them" or at least "seen them on TV."  Are they "preaching the word"?  Being allegedly "persecuted" isn't the sign that one is "preaching the word", otherwise those false prophets Paul named by name could claim to have been "persecuted" by him.  Maybe they did claim that, but they didn't fulfill the FIRST part of the "live godly/be persecuted" part of the equation.     

For my part, I have no problem with the traveler in your story.  But I also have no problem with the way Jesse/Extol operates in real-life.  You ask if we can do the works of Jesus.  Let me ask if we are supposed to do the works of Timothy?  We're not all called to the same "ministry".  If so, HOW?  And for whom?  I don't always know what to do, or how to do it 'right'.  But if persecution follows, then I want it to be for the right reason.

Somehow, I think we really know deep down what is going on in our own motivation, but like every other action, it's very easy to justify ourselves in our own actions both before and after the fact.  Wisdom, on the other hand, is justified of her children.     

   

[cheekie3]

All -

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. The Scriptures instruct us to be living sacrifices and witness to ALL by the way we live and behave (i.e. what is in our hearts enters our minds which produces our speech and actions). They shall know who the Elect are by the fruit produced by the Elect.

2. Who did Paul instruct Timothy to preach to - is it to unbelievers or to the Called Out Called Out Elect.

Kind Regards.

Always Learning George.

[lilitalienboi16]

Very much in like mind with Kat, Jesse and the others on this.

God does not need us to save anyone and while Jesus was alive He didn't convert a single person so what makes us think we can? God is sovereign and all is going exactly as planned. Like Kat has said, we  certainly don't want people to think we agree with their blasphemies but that doesn't mean we need to go further and try to convince those unwilling to listen of our perspective.  Cast not your pearls before the swine lest they turn and rend you. The sum of God's Word is truth and so consider that we are to be ready to give an ANSWER for the reason of our hope to those who ASK US. That certainly requires one to study daily and be instant both in season and out of season. Yet I don't see that to mean we go looking for trouble too. What fellowship does light have with the darkness? Come out of her and touch not the unclean things! Our lives are hid in Christ and we are to live quiet and peaceable lives. As God has said, our salvation is in quietness and stillness. We who believe do enter into rest.

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I WILL be exalted among the heathen, I WILL be exalted in the earth.

You will know them by their fruits. The fruits of the spirit then are these:

Gal5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:8-10
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

God bless,
Alex

[willemv]

Hi everybody

First of all I must say I feel like I hijacked Miranda's original posting and I hope through all this that she got her answers?

No, I have no calling as a preacher , just a witness ! But I do believe that polite correction when my Saviour and God is being blasphemed in my presence is not only warranted ,but for me is a must do, or I would be like a Peter when he denied Jesus.Surely you agree to this?

Thanks for all the inputs - a lot to consider and meditate on . One of my characteristics is an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and self-reliance, which is something I must overcome.

The way I understand Ray's attacking style of teaching is that he had serious problems with the Institutions calling themselves the Church of Christ while being deceived by men's doctrines ( inspired by the great deceiver Satan ) . The Institutions include their ministers whom none can convince of their errors, believe me I have tried for years while still being part of them, not specifically on the doctrine of "hell " as I knew no better myself,but a lot of other doctrines like the 'Trinity", predestination the way they preach it, the so-called rapture and the Day of the Lord and I have accused them of accepting the work of the Reformers being complete instead of finding the deeper truths in the Word of God , but the theologians had become an academic elite etc. But yes, although Jesus warns us to come out of her so-as not to partake of her sins , I still believe that their are some  "elect " among them who will die in Christ and be raised up in the resurrection at Christ's second coming. I think the last thing we forum members should think ,and I trust we do not,that we are all and the only  elect.Ray Smith only started his teaching when the Scriptures were revealed to him --when ? the 1970's or 80's? Dennis can answer that. But this is part of the end times of this age when the knowledge will increase and so will sin and unrighteousness.

God bless all, Wim