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Does God really cause all things ?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Rick on May 05, 2016, 11:48:30 PM ---
Is it God who entices us to sin? I say no because we know God does not temp anyone to sin, is it us who causes us to sin ? I'm not sure what to answer but Ray did teach us that Satan deceives the whole world as to the truth of God but Ray also taught us that no one can resist the devil except by the power of God so I ask is it not Satan who causes all to sin?
And then a man is drawn away with his own lust and enticed .
So can one say that Eve once tempted was drawn away by her own lust and desire to be wise?
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick, what God being the 'first cause' means to me is He's responsible for all the laws of cause and effect that are put in place from the beginning of this creation... it's every single thing that is put in motion to bring about the results of whatever happens.
Now of course Satan is a major player in enticing us to sin, he is God's 'first cause' by creating him in the first place. And our carnal nature (first cause created within us) is what Satan influences... with all his cunning persuasion it's easy for him to influence us to sin. But why couldn't Satan persuasion get Christ to sin, he certainly knew exactly what to entice Him with? Jesus did/does not have a carnal mind, therefore no lust can tempt Him! The carnal lusts that God created human's with is what makes us so spiritually weak, we can't help but to give in to these desires. The causes that are already put in place are just the little influences that bring the desires to our attention, our carnal lust then takes over and WE do the sinning.
Here are a few places Ray spoke on these things.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ---
"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed idea. Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect"? It means for every effect there is a CAUSE. This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless. This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise.
God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter. I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures. I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.
http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#trial --------------------------
Not everything in the Bible is "easy" to understand. It takes God's spirit and it take wisdom. God supplies both.
God does send custom made trials to all of us. He does NOT, however, do the "trying" in these trials.
A trial is where evidence is presented to determine one's guilt or innocence. God is far above us carnal matters. God already knows IN ADVANCE what we will or will not do under our trials.
Therefore, He does not determine from the evidence whether we passed or failed the trial; whether we are guilt or innocent. The trial is for OUR benefit, not HIS!
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm ------------------------
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause US to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -----------------
Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?
After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."
Then James comes along and says
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MANY." (James 1:13).
And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to
"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!
What is going on here?
Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.
First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."
"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food, and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).
"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).
"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).
"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).
From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.
And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.
But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.
The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,
"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).
The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."
Hope that helps a little.
God be with you,
Ray
cheekie3:
Rick -
I believe I know where you are coming from.
We discover that God is Sovereign Supreme.
We discover that we have no will outside of causes - and Our Sovereign Supreme is the ultimate cause of all things caused - and there is nothing that happens without a cause - and this includes everything any one of us desires (in our hearts), thinks (with our minds), speaks (with our tongues) and does (with our actions); whether these be of Good or Evil.
We discover that all that is Good in us and in everyone is of Our Sovereign Supreme.
We discover that we want the race to end - but we are still faced with our fiery trials of daily struggles and sufferings and frustrations.
We discover the differences between being cunning, being clever, being educated (or is that being indoctrinated and brainwashed into obeying Mankind rather than Our Heavenly Father), having knowledge and obtaining the Wisdom of Our Sovereign Supreme.
Some of us then discover that all that we believe we know is an illusion powered by the Wickedness of Evil Men and Principalities with their lies and deception.
Some of us then get angry and upset - and initially feel powerless to do anything about the Evil on the Earth - and some of us even feel like the worst failure to our families - then we remember that we have Our Sovereign Supreme who is above ALL and is in perfect control of ALL.
So we remember that we should live in His Holy Spirit and the Fruit thereof - being firstly in His Love, His Joy, and His Peace (that passes all understanding), then being in His Forbearance (His Patience and His Restraint), His Kindness and His Goodness, and finally being in His Fidelity (His Faith and His Faithfulness), His Meekness (His Humility, Our Submissiveness & Our Patience), and His Self Control (leading to our Self Control).
Then we realise Love is Light is Life - and being Alive is very worthwhile as we patiently await the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of Our Supreme Sovereign.
Kind Regards.
Overawed George.
rick:
Hi Kat,
The understanding I was seeking I believe I have found, I understand all is of God but I see the separation between God , Satan and myself and why I'm accountable for my actions but not responsible.
Understanding doesn't make things easier but an accurate knowledge of God is necessary.
God bless.
lauriellen:
What Dennis wrote made me think....I too wonder how God/Jesus gained knowledge of good and evil. Ray spoke about how he didn't believe that Jesus was given ALL things for nothing...that maybe He had to go thru something? I wonder if this whole process isn't something that has happened over and over? I can still hear Ray talking about the 'heavenly host' and saying 'WHO ARE THEY?"
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