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Humans predate neandrathals?
John from Kentucky:
All the Scriptures are absolute truth. However, some are not literally true. Many Scriptures are allegories or stories that teach deep spiritual truths. Jesus said His words are Spirit and they are Life.
Ray once said and wrote that some Scriptures are like Charley Brown stories. They can be understood on different levels. Children can read the story and understand on one level. Adults can read the story and understand on another level.
I understand the chapter on Adam and Eve as being an allegory, or story that teaches great spiritual truths. One clue that the story may be an allegory is that the chapter mentions a serpent that stands up and talks to the woman and she talks back; two trees, one tree is the Tree of Life, one tree is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; a flaming sword that turns every which way and guards access to the Tree of Life. In the Book of Revelation we are taught Who is the Tree of Life.
I do not find any contradictions between True Science and God's Truth.
I do not want to offend anyone who believes the Scriptures are literally true.
The Spirit of God can lead all to His Truths regardless of one's current views or understanding of the Scriptures.
One of my favorite, "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD Almighty."
cheekie3:
John from Kentucky -
Thanks for your post regarding absolute truth, literal true and allegorical truth.
--- Quote ---All the Scriptures are absolute truth. However, some are not literally true. Many Scriptures are allegories or stories that teach deep spiritual truths. Jesus said His words are Spirit and they are Life.
--- End quote ---
I will be interested to know what your, and others', understanding of the following Passage is:
Matthew 4:
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
Is the above Passage literally true or is some of it literally true.
If only some of it is literally true, how can we be certain which aspects are literal and which are allegories.
Can this Passage be both literally true and a Parable.
I am curious, that is all - as we all know that Jesus taught in Parables.
To me, all the above Passage appears to be literal; yet we can wonder how did the devil take up Jesus to a very high mountain (e.g. did they both climb up the mountain), and is it possible to see all the kingdoms of the world (of around 30 AD) from a very high mountain.
Curious George.
Kat:
Hi George, it sure is an interesting passage.
Matt 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
The Spirit lead Him into the wilderness, as it was time before His ministry began, to be tried and tested. It was necessary for Him to go through this as a proving, that He would have first hand experience, so to speak. And it seems that those temptations He faced, gave the full range of possible worldly lusts.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus is God, so He needed to put Himself in a position or make Himself somewhat venerable, so He went into a secluded area alone and put Himself through a rather extreme process to get His flesh to a weakened state. Though not carnal, He was certainly effected by what happened to His flesh.
Matt 4:2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, He was hungry.
v. 3 And the tempter came and said to him...
This was all certainly literal. I think most people could not survive being without food for 40 days, I also would think He was near actual physical collapse. So perfect time for Satan to move in... do remember Satan is a spirit being, he cannot be seen, he influences the mind/thinking.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -----------
[Ray's reply]
Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.
Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
---------------------------------------------
So Satan, who is so very cunning, right off the bat hits Jesus where he is the most physically weak, His extreme hunger.
Matt 4:3 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
This would have been so easy for Him to do and would seem justifiable for Jesus in His condition, but He knew what was going on... this was a temptation involving the lust of the flesh (1John 2:16).
Matt 4:4 But He answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
v. 5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple
v. 6 and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God, throw Yourself down, for it is written, "'He will command His angels concerning You,' and "'On their hands they will bear You up, lest You strike your foot against a stone.'"
Since Jesus had just used Scripture to answer the first temptation, now Satan turned to Scripture as well with Psalms 91:11-12 to tempt Him, and a "IF you are the Son" slight. I do not believe that He literally went to the pinnacle of the temple, but as Jesus knew it well, it was brought to His mind in a vision.
Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Satan surely could not get one over on Jesus, He knew exactly what Satan was trying to do and certainly could not best Jesus with His own Scripture. So He came right back with another Scripture in answer.
v. 8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
v. 9 And he said to Him, "All these I will give You, if You will fall down and worship me."
So here is the ultimate test... and I believe this was represented in a vision as the other must have been, as Satan influences the minds eye. I believe Satan showed/tempted Jesus with the idea that He did not really have to go through that horrible crucifixion and the humiliation of it all, that He could stop right there and could actually take over the world at once. He could start His reign at once and the salvation of the world as Satan seductively offered. Satan could not actually "give" that to Jesus, all is God's, but he certainly would be displaced if Jesus did.
This was a real temptation before Jesus and I guess He certainly could have done it... BUT the plan of salvation would be greatly altered/compromised, without 'His' resurrection as a firstfruit, wouldn't all the dead be lost? Satan tried to disguise it as a victory for Jesus, but in reality it would be his victory, as it was his most treacherous and devious hope of what could happen... Jesus was well aware of this!
Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.'"
Certainly this is a lot of speculation, it's my take on this passage, it may give you something to consider.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
Hello George,
I believe the Scriptures you quoted are literally true. The Scriptures tell us Satan is the god of this world and that he is the prince of the power of the air. So I believe he has the power to do what those Scriptures say he did.
However, even with the power he had, and Jesus being in a weakened physical state, Jesus kicked Satan's sorry serpentine rear end all over the desert. Which always makes me smile.
John
Dave in Tenn:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
"Can this Passage be both literally true and a Parable.
I am curious, that is all - as we all know that Jesus taught in Parables.
To me, all the above Passage appears to be literal; yet we can wonder how did the devil take up Jesus to a very high mountain (e.g. did they both climb up the mountain), and is it possible to see all the kingdoms of the world (of around 30 AD) from a very high mountain."
Knowing that no scripture is at all it's own interpretation, I am comfortable understanding that there is and was no physical mountain on the earth from which a man could "literally" see all the kingdoms of the earth of 30 AD. The world known to Matthew and his contemporaries at the time was vast, and the world unknown to them at the time far more vast.
Compare this passage to what Paul wrote:
2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul called his experiences "visions and revelations" of the Lord, yet in trying to describe it could not say whether he was "caught up" "in the body or out of the body". Forget Literal and "allegory" for a moment. It was that "real" to Paul. Just because "visions" and "revelations" are "in the mind" does not make them "unreal". It just makes them "visions and revelations".
After all, Jesus was in clear spiritual warfare. Where does that take place? The body may be anywhere, including encased in concrete at the bottom of a well--the mind is where it's at.
Put those two (and an important side-note) together, and I can believe that the devil took Jesus to a physical high mountain and "showed Him" in vision all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory. I can also believe the devil took Jesus to a "high mountain" in vision and revelation and showed Him all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory. There are other "not-it's-own-interpretation" possibilities that I might also can believe.
The one I cannot believe is that the devil took Jesus to a single physical high mountain and, while there, literally showed Him literally all the physical Kingdoms of the World and all their literal/physical glory.
That said, the passage is TRUE, regardless of what (if any) parts are "literal". THAT said, to dwell on the physical/literal possibilities to the ignoring of the Spiritual REALITIES/TRUTHS is not something I have any desire to do. To be carnally minded is death. To be spiritually minded is life and peace.
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