Casting lots

[lostANDfound]

Hello!   
I just read Proverbs 18:18 and I don't remember having read it before. 
In the Concordant version:
"Casting the lot causes quarrels to cease,
And keeps staunch foes apart."
It struck me because when I first came across the BT site I read for awhile and then stopped short, half afraid and half excited.  I knew this was DIFFERENT and it answered so many of my nagging questions but it flew in the face of what I had always been taught.  So I prayed and I thought, and I wondered... and I just NEEDED a straightforward answer about whether I should continue looking at the site so I wrote out a bunch of possibilities multiple times on little scraps of paper and prayed some more and picked one.  And it was "read it and believe it" or something like that.  I can't really remember it was so long ago but it was affirming that I continue to read Ray's writings. I haven't done that again since, and I hadn't ever done it before, but I've always wondered if that was a little sketchy, the way I did that.  So I'm wondering if anyone knows of any spiritual matches?  I'm pretty sure they cast lots to pick a disciple after Judas died?  And of course they cast lots of Jesus clothes after he died.  Do any of you cast lots for major decisions?

[indianabob]

When faithful people cast lots in scripture it is to let God decide the outcome.
It is not a gamble or chance to see who will be lucky.
I don't cast lots because God answers my prayers personally in my mind and heart.

Indiana Bob

[rick]

Hi lost & found,

I had to laugh after reading ur thread as it brought back memory's from long ago, I remember doing similar things also.

I would say to God if you want me to do this or whatever it was at the time I would toss a coin in the air and say if it's heads or if it's tails , or I would throw something and say if it lands there then that is your will.

I don't believe I would do those things today with the understanding I have but in my life I will rule nothing out.


God bless.

[lostANDfound]

Like I said, hadn't done it before and haven't done it since. 

[rick]

Like I said, hadn't done it before and haven't done it since.

Hi LostAndfound,

Have you ever thought that it might of been God causing you to do that ? I believe in my case it was. Did you ever buy a scratch ticket ?

Once in a blue moon I'll buy a scratch ticket hoping not to work anymore, lol but on those  occasions I do ,I always seem to lose .

God bless.

[lostANDfound]

Never bought a scratch ticket, not even for a gift.

[Kat]

I really don't know of anybody that case lots to get answers these days... but the Apostles did it.

Acts 1:26  And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

With anything it's what the intentions are be hide the act. In the OT it was the way that God allowed important decisions to be made, but even the lots fell where God intended them to.

Pro 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

The practice of casting lots occurs most often in connection with the division of the land under Joshua (Joshua chapters 14-21). Also a process that God instructed the Israelites several times in the book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). So God allowed the Israelites to cast lots in order to determine His will for a given situation (Joshua 18:6-10; 1 Chronicles 24:5,31). there were offices and functions in the temple that were also determined by lot (1 Chronicles 24:5, 31; 25:8-9; 26:13-14).

I really cannot see anything wrong with the way you got your answer Vicki. Would I do it? I don't know, I've never thought about it till now, but maybe with the Holy Spirit as a personal guide to us it is not necessary...

John 16:13  However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

Something that John from Kentucky wrote once really stuck with me - the best prayer I can come up with anymore is "God, thank you for your will in my life." I don't mean to say that I don't pray for others, but even then, it really amounts to the same words. I can't come up with a reason to say more. What can our prayers do but thank God? Asking for direction seems meaningless - God never changes his mind.  Maybe under the physical law there was a purpose, but spiritually, this idea of casting lots (and maybe I'm not catching on) seems completely meaningless. We're told to pray without ceasing- 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 - but to me it only makes sense to just give thanks.  Whether we go here or there, isn't up to us, so why even try to guess where God might be leading? Casting lots seems as though we're trying to divine God.

[lostANDfound]

Well, Jeff, if I understand you, yes that's exactly what I was trying to do. I was trying to understand the will of God in a situation where I might easily be confused by evil spirits (evil spiritual doctrines).  I was trying to protect my heart and mind if it needed to protected by this convincing but heretical teaching if it wasn't the pure gold it at first appeared to be.  I had a strong urge to read on and soak it all in but I was being cautious that I not be led away by every wind of doctrine.  And this was a very different wind.
 

[Jeff]

Well, Jeff, if I understand you, yes that's exactly what I was trying to do. I was trying to understand the will of God in a situation where I might easily be confused by evil spirits (evil spiritual doctrines).  I was trying to protect my heart and mind if it needed to protected by this convincing but heretical teaching if it wasn't the pure gold it at first appeared to be.  I had a strong urge to read on and soak it all in but I was being cautious that I not be led away by every wind of doctrine.  And this was a very different wind.

lostAndFound,

I mean no disrespect.  I only mean to say that it doesn't matter whether we turn right or left, we can only go in the direction God has already predetermined.  God never changes, and he never changes his mind.  Our steps are laid out in front of us, and while we're given choices, the outcome will always be what God intends.

Jeremiah 29:11 is just one of many encouragements to understanding his will in our lives:

"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

Nothing we can do, or choose, will change God's plan, and that includes the calamity we might face.

Isaiah 45:7 "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

What is about to happen has already happened.

[Joel]

The way I see it, we should do as we are lead.
Gideon put out the fleece before God.
How many scriptures are there in support of casting lots?
And how many are there against casting lots?

Joel

[lostANDfound]

I agree Jeff with what you are saying about predetermination, but that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about seeking to do right.  My desire in that moment to know the truth and do right led me to the predetermined path I took. True, it was all of God, and it couldn't have been any other way. But are you suggesting we just follow our noses and not question anything? Maybe I'm not following you properly.  You said "asking for direction seems meaningless".  I think there might be a gap in your understanding about predetermination. 
Remember Ray talking about the difference between Gods stated will which we all go against, and His ultimate will or intention which no one ever goes against?  I wanted to do his 'stated will' in that moment and in the process I inevitably ended up following his intention as we all do.  We don't need to go on about that one situation, there are any number of times in ones life when one has a desire to do right but they aren't sure what 'right' is in that situation.  Like Alex's post about giving money to people he hardly knows, for example.  Whatever he ends up doing is already predetermined, that's true, but he still has to have the experience of wrestling with the decision.  And that experience is serving a purpose for him somehow.  We struggle and wonder and the direction we take might feel very random or very deliberated, but that process of deciding is not to be shrugged off once we have the knowledge of Gods predetermination.
Everyone feel free to correct me if I have this mixed up, as I know you will happily do!

[Kat]

I mean no disrespect.  I only mean to say that it doesn't matter whether we turn right or left, we can only go in the direction God has already predetermined.  God never changes, and he never changes his mind.  Our steps are laid out in front of us, and while we're given choices, the outcome will always be what God intends.

Jeremiah 29:11 is just one of many encouragements to understanding his will in our lives:

"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope."

Nothing we can do, or choose, will change God's plan, and that includes the calamity we might face.

Isaiah 45:7 "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

What is about to happen has already happened.

Jeff, God is sovereign, knows the end from the beginning, but we do not. He has created this world for us to have the experience of life, learning through this experience. All the circumstances we encounter we don't know the future outcome, so we have to think, reason and make decisions, which develops character, good or bad, but we are becoming unique individuals because of it. That's what this life is about, bringing beings into existence and giving us this physical opportunity to live and learn and developing individuality... though all we're similar as in human, but there are many differences in each of us.

Yes God is in control, I mean He has all the power, without Him there is nothing, if He didn't bring it about it wouldn't happen. But He is making us so much more than puppets or pawns in His hands, that's what is so incredible and beautiful about all this. What He is doing is making us as thinking reasoning creatures, we weigh the options and make decisions, develop knowledge, gain understanding, create memories and personality. Though we do not have free will (an impossibility as God has all power), yet we still have a sense of freedom! The whole world thinks they have free will, because God has designed this creation so intricate and complex that we are unaware of all the millions of unseen causes at work around us... so we live our lives and do not feel every move is caused.

I guess only when you come to the knowledge of the truth and realize what God's sovereignty really is, that this can cause you distress and unhappy about the condition of the world right now. It's interesting that God has blinded all but a very few to this knowledge in this age, in His wisdom He knows this is a very hard thing to understand... well again the individuality, as I see it is very hard for come to come to terms with this, but it is not for me.

In the next age God we will have the next phase of His plan, I think we will see how truly remarkable His grace and justice will be at setting things right. But we do have to trust/believe that our God is capable of that...

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

I agree Jeff with what you are saying about predetermination, but that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about seeking to do right.  My desire in that moment to know the truth and do right led me to the predetermined path I took. True, it was all of God, and it couldn't have been any other way. But are you suggesting we just follow our noses and not question anything? Maybe I'm not following you properly.  You said "asking for direction seems meaningless".  I think there might be a gap in your understanding about predetermination. 
Remember Ray talking about the difference between Gods stated will which we all go against, and His ultimate will or intention which no one ever goes against?  I wanted to do his 'stated will' in that moment and in the process I inevitably ended up following his intention as we all do.  We don't need to go on about that one situation, there are any number of times in ones life when one has a desire to do right but they aren't sure what 'right' is in that situation.  Like Alex's post about giving money to people he hardly knows, for example.  Whatever he ends up doing is already predetermined, that's true, but he still has to have the experience of wrestling with the decision.  And that experience is serving a purpose for him somehow.  We struggle and wonder and the direction we take might feel very random or very deliberated, but that process of deciding is not to be shrugged off once we have the knowledge of Gods predetermination.
Everyone feel free to correct me if I have this mixed up, as I know you will happily do!

I believe it's true that we have a responsibility to act and move forward while seeking God.  God wants a relationship with us but I also think it can be very simple, or very complicated, depending on how he created us. What else can we do except step out as best we can? We don't have many options other than to learn, live, and act.

Psalm 51:16–17 "For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise."

I'm sorry if I didn't understand what you wrote, but I think I have a better understanding of your heart, now. This medium of communicating is a process that unfolds slowly.

Obedience is love, as Ray has taught the Scriptures, and that seems to be your desire, and I'm no one to say differently, and never meant to.

I struggle with "stated will" versus "ultimate will". It's difficult for me to separate the two, but I'll keep working at it.

I think Alex's example is straight forward, and easy to identify.  Your struggle seemed more complex on the surface, but I would never question your faith, or motives.  I was just reflecting on the less complex idea of God's total sovereignty.  The nuances that he brings to each of us, uniquely, are something else entirely.

[Dave in Tenn]

Actually, I love your story.

Pro 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.  That doesn't read like a commandment to cast lots to me, but a piece of information to be discerned Spiritually.  The example of the 11 choosing the 12th can well be seen the same way.  They could just as easily have chosen candidates and prayerfully considered all their options before voting.  They could have done it some other way.  Every decision is from the Lord.

Ah, but not every decision from the Lord is the INTENTION of the Lord.  He hardened Pharaoh's heart even when the poor King wanted to let His people go.  The Lord decides a lot of things that cause people to go against His stated will, but even those decisions ultimately result in the fulfilling of His intention.  He gets what He wants and by any means He chooses.

What "casting lots" seems to do is put the results firmly in the hands of God, in a symbolic, physical manner.    You know how people can get if their "candidate" or "choice" isn't the one taken.  With that fullness of wisdom gained, then "chance" and "circumstance" to the carnal mind becomes faith and freedom to the spiritual mind.   

One thing is for sure--Matthias didn't rise up and declare himself be be Judas' replacement.     And I'm glad the "right" slip was pulled in your case, but I can't help but think since it WAS your "time" you would have disobeyed the "wrong" slip.     

[rick]

The more I meditate of God the greater my understanding is of the Potter , He has complete control over the clay. As much as the clay thinks it has a say is irrelevant for it has no say at all.

All the more reason to feel secure knowing God has our best interest at heart but nonetheless we all must go through the process which is most difficult.

Glory and honor to God which is completely sovereign. Here is wisdom ..surrender but even that is only when the potter get you too.

Isn't it wonderful just knowing we are forgiven ?

God bless.

[Jeff]

I think there's something very important in this that I'm just not understanding.  And I really want to understand.

We must think, and do, and walk, and act - it's essential in building our character.  But it's all directed by God.  Everything that happens, every thought we have, it's God.  Every act, evil or good, it's all of God.

Our obedience reflects our love, but even that, is of God.

What am I missing?

[Dave in Tenn]

I think there's something very important in this that I'm just not understanding.  And I really want to understand.

We must think, and do, and walk, and act - it's essential in building our character.  But it's all directed by God.  Everything that happens, every thought we have, it's God.  Every act, evil or good, it's all of God.

Our obedience reflects our love, but even that, is of God.

What am I missing?

Going backwards, Who loved who first? 

For the rest of it, try this.  Maybe it will help.  Read those chapters in Exodus and put yourself in Pharaoh's shoes.  Everybody wants to be Moses (except those who really want to be God).  Did Pharaoh do and say the things he did and said? 

Anyway, when you have some time, try it out.  I'd love to hear what you think. 

[Kat]

I think there's something very important in this that I'm just not understanding.  And I really want to understand.

We must think, and do, and walk, and act - it's essential in building our character.  But it's all directed by God.  Everything that happens, every thought we have, it's God.  Every act, evil or good, it's all of God.

Our obedience reflects our love, but even that, is of God.

What am I missing?

Jeff, doesn't the experiences we have in this life cause 'us' to feel happy, sad, anger, joy, fear, pride, hope, lust, pity, awe, shame, trust, envy, curiosity, grief, embarrassment, gratitude, wonder, humility  etc... all these emotions and many more are OUR feelings. God gave us these intense feelings so that we can gain from them. Yes all things are caused/brought about by God, but these emotions are brought about in us, it's for our experience to create our own set of attributes. We all have a complex set of character traits from all the emotions we experience and that make us who we are.

So it seems that it's so much more than God just causing it to happen to us, it's for us to learn and develop into all these unique individuals that we have in this world. Out of all of the billions of people who have ever lived I really do not believe any 2 are exactly the same, that's how intricately complex this world and our interaction in it is. It makes me even more aware of how astonishingly amazing our God is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat