Matthew 9:17 bottles KJV

[cheekie3]

All -

Since when did wineskins become bottles in the KJV Bible:

Matthew 9:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.


Curious.

George

[rick]

Hi George,

It is interesting for sure but still I don't see where the meaning has change.

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

What about this one - when did Easter come into the Scriptures:

Acts 12:4King James Version (KJV)

4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Check your own hard copy KJV of this Scripture; and you will see it also has Easter in it.

Kind Regards.

George

[rick]

Hi George,

We know that there are those who have added to the word of God and subtract from the word of God.

I don't think it matters because the masses are blinded by the devil and they cannot see but you see because you picked up on it right away which is in itself a testimony that God is working in your life.

We know that all who are blind will one day see because Jesus is savior of the whole world and there is no such thing as eternal damnation as some would have us believe.

God bless.

[Joel]

My understanding of Easter is that it was a heathen, or pagan holiday, long before the Christians associated Easter with the resurrection of Christ.
Herod no doubt observed all of the Roman activities himself. (Acts 12:4)

Joel

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi George,

We know that there are those who have added to the word of God and subtract from the word of God.

I don't think it matters because the masses are blinded by the devil and they cannot see but you see because you picked up on it right away which is in itself a testimony that God is working in your life.

We know that all who are blind will one day see because Jesus is savior of the whole world and there is no such thing as eternal damnation as some would have us believe.

God bless.

Noted.

What I am saying is this, there are a number of Scriptural Passages in the KJV Bible that have been altered; and if you check any physical or online KJV Bible source, you will discover that it is as if these Scriptures were always this way.

Check another Scripture:

Isaiah 65:25: (KJV):

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Should this not read 'The Lion and the lamb shall lie together'.

If you Google (Images) this, you will see an anomaly, in that there are both images of the lamb with either a Fox, or a Lion.

Kind Regards.

Curious, George.

[cheekie3]

Joel -

Noted:

My understanding of Easter is that it was a heathen, or pagan holiday, long before the Christians associated Easter with the resurrection of Christ.
Herod no doubt observed all of the Roman activities himself. (Acts 12:4)

Joel

You have missed the point I am making; in that it is not just that 'Easter' replaced the original KJV word, it is as if, 'Easter' was always in the KJV Bible.

Look below regarding the Matthew 9:17 KJV Bible Scripture.

Please check any hard copy KJV Bible or any online KJV Bible.

This is what is should be:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Compare that with this:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Regards.

George

[rick]

Hi George,

I had an old King James Version and your right in the old version it read wine skins and not bottles. I remember that scripture.

I understand there are changes being made in today's bibles but like Ray said do you think the churches which were corrupt back then has gotten any better?

I wonder if you brought that to the publishers attention if they would make a correction ? Or do you believe it's being done by design?

Ray is right again about Satan deceiving the whole world and you know he is very good at it.
George, to me, everything in this aged is totally corrupt.

Now your seeing the bible being corrupted too. Ray did mention that he felt the King James was a very good translation of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts but these new edition maybe Ray might not of said today what he said then.

My belief is that God can work around all things and get the truth to His elect so why worry about it, what is not corrupt ?

God bless.

[zvezda]

Hi George, I don't have a hard copy KJV, but looks like it's always been "old bottles", "easter" and "wolf and lamb".

You can see the scan of the first printing of the 1611 KJV here (you can click to enlarge the imagines):
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-9_Original-1611-KJV/
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-12_Original-1611-KJV/
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-Chapter-65_Original-1611-KJV/

[cheekie3]

zvezda -

Noted and Appreciated.

Hi George, I don't have a hard copy KJV, but looks like it's always been "old bottles", "easter" and "wolf and lamb".

You can see the scan of the first printing of the 1611 KJV here (you can click to enlarge the imagines):
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-Chapter-9_Original-1611-KJV/
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-12_Original-1611-KJV/
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-Chapter-65_Original-1611-KJV/

If you do a search on this forum for Matthew 9:17 - you will find:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

But if you look in a KJV Bible online or in a physical version you will find:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

George

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Noted and Understood.

Hi George,

I had an old King James Version and your right in the old version it read wine skins and not bottles. I remember that scripture.

I understand there are changes being made in today's bibles but like Ray said do you think the churches which were corrupt back then has gotten any better?

I wonder if you brought that to the publishers attention if they would make a correction ? Or do you believe it's being done by design?

Ray is right again about Satan deceiving the whole world and you know he is very good at it.
George, to me, everything in this aged is totally corrupt.

Now your seeing the bible being corrupted too. Ray did mention that he felt the King James was a very good translation of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts but these new edition maybe Ray might not of said today what he said then.

My belief is that God can work around all things and get the truth to His elect so why worry about it, what is not corrupt ?

God bless.

You have missed the point I am making.

This has nothing to do with the publishers.

I am saying the following:

1. The original Matthew 9:7 KJV used 'wineskins' from its original publication up to very recently; so all online versions and hard copies would have had 'wineskins'.
2. Today, if you search mostly everywhere (apart from maybe this forum), you will find 'bottles' in all online and hard copies.

It appears that what was from the first publication, is now different from its first publication.

Kind Regards.

George

[zvezda]

If you do a search on this forum for Matthew 9:17 - you will find:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

But did the member who posted the verse on this forum say it's from KJV? Maybe you are confused with MKJV (modern KJV)? You can check out the MKJV at: http://dailybibleonline.com/MkjVersion.aspx

[Kat]

From my E-Sword

Matthew 9:17

(ASV)  Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved.

(BBE)  And men do not put new wine into old wine-skins; or the skins will be burst and the wine will come out, and the skins are of no more use: but they put new wine into new wine-skins, and so the two will be safe.

(CLV) Neither are they draining fresh wine into old wine skins; otherwise, surely the wine skins are bursting, and the wine is spilling, and the wine skins perish. But they are draining fresh wine into new wine skins, and both are preserved."

(ERV)  Also, people never pour new wine into old wineskins. They would break, the wine would spill out, and the wineskins would be ruined. People always put new wine into new wineskins, which won't break, and the wine stays good."

(ESV)  Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

(GNB)  Nor does anyone pour new wine into used wineskins, for the skins will burst, the wine will pour out, and the skins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into fresh wineskins, and both will keep in good condition."

(ISV)  Nor do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will spill out, and the skins will be ruined. Instead, they pour new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

(LITV)  Nor do they put new wine into old skins; otherwise, the skins are burst, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be ruined. But they put new wine into fresh skins, and both are preserved together.

(Rotherham)  Neither pour they new wine into old skins: otherwise at least, the skins are burst, and, the wine, runneth out, and, the skins, are spoiled,—but they pour new wine into unused skins, and, both, are together preserved.

(RV)  Neither do men put new wine into old wineskins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.

(YLT)  `Nor do they put new wine into old skins, and if not--the skins burst, and the wine doth run out, and the skins are destroyed, but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.'

(MKJV)  Nor do men put new wine into old wineskins; else the wineskins burst, and the wine runs out, and the wineskins perish. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved together.

(NKJV)  Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

(KJV)  Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

(KJV+)  NeitherG3761 do men putG906 newG3501 wineG3631 intoG1519 oldG3820 bottles:G779 elseG1490 theG3588 bottlesG779 break,G4486 andG2532 theG3588 wineG3631 runneth out,G1632 andG2532 theG3588 bottlesG779 perish:G622 butG235 they putG906 newG3501 wineG3631 intoG1519 newG2537 bottles,G779 andG2532 bothG297 are preserved.G4933

G779
ἀσκός
askos
as-kos'
From the same as G778; a leathern (or skin) bag used as a bottle: - bottle.

[cheekie3]

zvezda -

Noted and Understood.

If you do a search on this forum for Matthew 9:17 - you will find:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.

But did the member who posted the verse on this forum say it's from KJV? Maybe you are confused with MKJV (modern KJV)? You can check out the MKJV at: http://dailybibleonline.com/MkjVersion.aspx

No, I am not confused, this is purely 100% to do with the KJVs.

The best example I can think of is:

Isaiah 65:25: (KJV):

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Should this not read 'The Lion and the lamb shall lie together'.

If you Google (Images) this, you will see an anomaly, in that there are both images of the lamb with either a Fox, or a Lion.

Kind Regards.

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

More form E-Sword

Isaiah 65:25

(ASV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.

(BBE)  The wolf and the lamb will take their food together, and the lion will make a meal of grass like the ox: but dust will be the snake's food. There will be no cause of pain or destruction in all my holy mountain, says the Lord.

(CLV) Then a wolf and a lambkin will graze alike, and the lion, as the beeve, will eat crushed straw, and the serpent has soil for its bread. They will not do evil, nor ruin in all My holy mountain,says Yahweh."

(ERV)  Wolves and little lambs will eat together. Lions will eat hay like cattle, and snakes will eat only dust. They will not hurt or destroy each other on my holy mountain." This is what the LORD said.

(ESV)  The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

(GNB)  Wolves and lambs will eat together; lions will eat straw, as cattle do, and snakes will no longer be dangerous. On Zion, my sacred hill, there will be nothing harmful or evil."

(ISV)  "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; but as for the serpent—its food will be dust! They won't harm or destroy on my entire holy mountain," says the LORD.

(KJV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

(KJV+)  The wolfH2061 and the lambH2924 shall feedH7462 together,H259 and the lionH738 shall eatH398 strawH8401 like the bullock:H1241 and dustH6083 shall be the serpent'sH5175 meat.H3899 They shall notH3808 hurtH7489 norH3808 destroyH7843 in allH3605 my holyH6944 mountain,H2022 saithH559 the LORD.H3068

(LITV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed as one; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And dust is the food of the snake. They shall not do evil nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.

(MKJV)  The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the food of the snake. They will not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.

(NKJV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

(Rotherham)  The wolf and the lamb, shall feed, in unity, And, the lion, as an ox, shall eat straw; But as for the serpent, dust, shall be his food: They shall not harm—Nor shall they destroy, In all my holy mountain, saith Yahweh.

(RV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

(YLT)  Wolf and lamb do feed as one, And a lion as an ox eateth straw, As to the serpent--dust is its food, They do no evil, nor destroy, In all My holy mountain, said Jehovah!

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for your post, which is very helpful:

From my E-Sword

Matthew 9:17

(ASV)  Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved.

(BBE)  And men do not put new wine into old wine-skins; or the skins will be burst and the wine will come out, and the skins are of no more use: but they put new wine into new wine-skins, and so the two will be safe.

(CLV) Neither are they draining fresh wine into old wine skins; otherwise, surely the wine skins are bursting, and the wine is spilling, and the wine skins perish. But they are draining fresh wine into new wine skins, and both are preserved."

(ERV)  Also, people never pour new wine into old wineskins. They would break, the wine would spill out, and the wineskins would be ruined. People always put new wine into new wineskins, which won't break, and the wine stays good."

(ESV)  Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

(GNB)  Nor does anyone pour new wine into used wineskins, for the skins will burst, the wine will pour out, and the skins will be ruined. Instead, new wine is poured into fresh wineskins, and both will keep in good condition."

(ISV)  Nor do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will spill out, and the skins will be ruined. Instead, they pour new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

(LITV)  Nor do they put new wine into old skins; otherwise, the skins are burst, and the wine pours out, and the skins will be ruined. But they put new wine into fresh skins, and both are preserved together.

(Rotherham)  Neither pour they new wine into old skins: otherwise at least, the skins are burst, and, the wine, runneth out, and, the skins, are spoiled,—but they pour new wine into unused skins, and, both, are together preserved.

(RV)  Neither do men put new wine into old wineskins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.

(YLT)  `Nor do they put new wine into old skins, and if not--the skins burst, and the wine doth run out, and the skins are destroyed, but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together.'

(MKJV)  Nor do men put new wine into old wineskins; else the wineskins burst, and the wine runs out, and the wineskins perish. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved together.

(NKJV)  Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

(KJV)  Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

(KJV+)  NeitherG3761 do men putG906 newG3501 wineG3631 intoG1519 oldG3820 bottles:G779 elseG1490 theG3588 bottlesG779 break,G4486 andG2532 theG3588 wineG3631 runneth out,G1632 andG2532 theG3588 bottlesG779 perish:G622 butG235 they putG906 newG3501 wineG3631 intoG1519 newG2537 bottles,G779 andG2532 bothG297 are preserved.G4933

G779
ἀσκός
askos
as-kos'
From the same as G778; a leathern (or skin) bag used as a bottle: - bottle.

The point I am making is solely to do with the KJV.

I have read and heard and watched people read out from the KJV Bible hundreds of times; and I remember it as:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.[/b]

But if you look now in a KJV Bible online or in a physical version you will find:

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Do you not recollect that the KJV stated wineskins and not bottles.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for these Scriptures. They are verry helpful.

More form E-Sword

Isaiah 65:25

(ASV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.

(BBE)  The wolf and the lamb will take their food together, and the lion will make a meal of grass like the ox: but dust will be the snake's food. There will be no cause of pain or destruction in all my holy mountain, says the Lord.

(CLV) Then a wolf and a lambkin will graze alike, and the lion, as the beeve, will eat crushed straw, and the serpent has soil for its bread. They will not do evil, nor ruin in all My holy mountain,says Yahweh."

(ERV)  Wolves and little lambs will eat together. Lions will eat hay like cattle, and snakes will eat only dust. They will not hurt or destroy each other on my holy mountain." This is what the LORD said.

(ESV)  The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

(GNB)  Wolves and lambs will eat together; lions will eat straw, as cattle do, and snakes will no longer be dangerous. On Zion, my sacred hill, there will be nothing harmful or evil."

(ISV)  "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; but as for the serpent—its food will be dust! They won't harm or destroy on my entire holy mountain," says the LORD.

(KJV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

(KJV+)  The wolfH2061 and the lambH2924 shall feedH7462 together,H259 and the lionH738 shall eatH398 strawH8401 like the bullock:H1241 and dustH6083 shall be the serpent'sH5175 meat.H3899 They shall notH3808 hurtH7489 norH3808 destroyH7843 in allH3605 my holyH6944 mountain,H2022 saithH559 the LORD.H3068

(LITV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed as one; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And dust is the food of the snake. They shall not do evil nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.

(MKJV)  The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the food of the snake. They will not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.

(NKJV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

(Rotherham)  The wolf and the lamb, shall feed, in unity, And, the lion, as an ox, shall eat straw; But as for the serpent, dust, shall be his food: They shall not harm—Nor shall they destroy, In all my holy mountain, saith Yahweh.

(RV)  The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

(YLT)  Wolf and lamb do feed as one, And a lion as an ox eateth straw, As to the serpent--dust is its food, They do no evil, nor destroy, In all My holy mountain, said Jehovah!

I am purely stating about the KJV only.

I have read the KJV hundreds of times, and it was always 'the lion shall lie down with the lamb'.

Do you not recollect this.

Why are there loads of images on Google (Images) search showing the Lion with the lamb - as well as the fox with the lamb. If the KJV scriptures did not originally state the lion, why are there so many pictures of the lion lieing peacefully with the lamb.

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

Yes George, that is the way I remember that it was wineskins, but not so much about the lion and the lamb, yes that is the way it's usually depicted in pictures, probably because it gives a more extreme example. That's one reason that I use a variety of translations, and Strong's to go into the meaning of the word translated... the translators did the best they could, but in some instances probably because they did not have knowledge of spiritual truth so they did/could not get it right. The word bottle really does not bother me, as I do not think it changes the meaning and I see "wolf and lamb" in all the translations so that's what I would go with.

Though translations do have errors, the Bibles we have been given can be used effectively and with help like what Ray gave about how to correct the errors, so we can come to the real meaning. I do not try to stick with one translation, even the modern English word translations (GNB) I use and find helpful. It's really about the spiritual understanding that's behind the Word on the page.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Hi George,
I have a KJV New Testament that the Gideon's gave me in 1961, and a 1972 KJV, Thomas Nelson center column reference, both say bottles for that verse.
The T.N., CCR also says "Or, wineskins" in the center column.

Joel

[zvezda]

The best example I can think of is:

Isaiah 65:25: (KJV):

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Should this not read 'The Lion and the lamb shall lie together'.

If you Google (Images) this, you will see an anomaly, in that there are both images of the lamb with either a Fox, or a Lion.

George, I believe "the lion and the lamb" is a common misquotation. I don't think the three verses you mentioned have been altered in KJV, as you can see them in the original 1611 KJV (the three links I provided in my previous post). Even Ray wrote "old bottles [wineskins]" in the LOF 11 http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html