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Author Topic: 1 John 5: 4 .  (Read 3650 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2016, 11:04:00 PM »

Dear Goerge,

Im a simple minded person so lets go one question at a time for my sake.

I believe Kat provided a sufficient responce in what Ray has said which I believe I did faithfuly present to Rick originally.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. You said "You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different." But I didn't say that though. I said there is only one word for Born and Concieved in greek which is 'Begotten.'
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 11:14:36 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

octoberose

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2016, 11:26:19 PM »

Rick - i hardly know what to say. No words of mine can make this better - but I hope you know you are not alone. May God strenthen you in the days to come .
 
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cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 05:23:27 AM »

Kat -

As always, thank you for your informative Post:


We have these words (beget, born, conceive) being used and are being defined, here are a few things to consider.

In the Scripture when beget/begotten is used it's always describing the action of a man, whereas conceive always refers to what happens in a woman. Therefore you will notice that the word 'conceived' in not used to describe a person receiving the Holy Spirit, which comes from the Father (John 14:26; 15:26), so we are "begotten anew" (John 3:3, 7).

Now in the Greek there is only one word that is translated either born or begotten, so that is where it can get confusing. Here are a couple of emails on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3888.msg29544#msg29544 ----

There is but one word in the Greek manuscripts to represent "begotten," and "born."  Numerous Scriptures tell us that we are given in this life, only the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). Furthermore, Jesus told Necodemus that when one IS ACTUALLY "born again" he is like the wind (John 3:3-8). Christians are not powerful and invisible as the wind is, in this life. From these two truths, we can establish that we are "begotten" of God's Spirit in this life, but we will not be "BORN of God's Spirit" until the resurrection to immortality (I Cor. 15:42-54).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ------

Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten."  Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born."  The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only;  we have eonian life in earnest only;  we have understanding and perception in earnest only.  In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind,"  "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2). 

God be with you,
Ray

Perhaps, we should focus on the true meaning of the word 'Redemption' - in order to ascertain, if The Elect are 'Redeemed' (in part, or in earnest) in This Age, or only at Their Resurrection:


Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV):

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

John 3:3-8 King James Version (KJV):

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



Looking at other New Testament Scriptures:

Luke 2:38 King James Version (KJV):

And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Luke 21:28 King James Version (KJV):

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Romans 3:24 King James Version (KJV):

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 8:23 King James Version (KJV):

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 1:30 King James Version (KJV):

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Ephesians 1:7 King James Version (KJV):

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 4:30 King James Version (KJV):

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:14 King James Version (KJV):

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Hebrews 9:12 King James Version (KJV):

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament (Covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Are we to believe that all the above Scriptures regarding redemption all apply only to the redemption of our body at our Resurrection?

Are we not redeemed now (in part or in earnest), 'as He has promised now, to forgive us of our sins, when we forgive all and repent all', do we not now have 'eonian life', and are we not now 'freely justified by His Grace'; and are we not now to 'Live our Lives in the New Man (the Second Adam)'. We may not have the fullness now, but do we have anything other than the forgiveness of our sins - are not our prayers, being righteous (In Him) powerful. Are we not in this Age, to do more wondrous works than Jesus Christ did before his Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension?

Are we not now (in Our New man) in full union with Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ? Who is the real man or woman that is us, is it the Old (Carnal) Man (or Woman), or is it the New (Spiritual) Man (or Woman)? Are we not to take 'here a little, there a little' of these Scriptural Truths, in order to Find The Truth of anything? Are we clear minded on the Things of God, that Please Him - are we not like 'flint' never wavering? Are we merely to be observers until the Resurrection of Our Bodies - are we not to be 'doers of The Word' - and if 'doers' what is it that we must do, if not 'all things in Christ Jesus as our New Man'?

Oops, I have a tendency lately, to Ramble On.

Please forgive me.
 
I am not trying to preach or teach - I am merely throwing these thoughts out here - for all of us on this forum to see who and what we are, and to see who and what we are not.

Maybe I should take a break and rest a little.

Peace.

George

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Doug

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 07:54:48 AM »

Rick, I am very sorry for you loss. Your faith will see you thru your darkest times. I hurt for you.
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Kat

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 01:22:58 PM »


Are we not now (in Our New man) in full union with Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ? Who is the real man or woman that is us, is it the Old (Carnal) Man (or Woman), or is it the New (Spiritual) Man (or Woman)? Are we not to take 'here a little, there a little' of these Scriptural Truths, in order to Find The Truth of anything? Are we clear minded on the Things of God, that Please Him - are we not like 'flint' never wavering? Are we merely to be observers until the Resurrection of Our Bodies - are we not to be 'doers of The Word' - and if 'doers' what is it that we must do, if not 'all things in Christ Jesus as our New Man'?

That first comment that I put in bold is what I cannot agree to... now all the rest of it is what I believe is being worked in the chosen at this time, yes the process has started and cannot fail to be completed. But what I'm saying is we are not in 'full' unity with God while still in these carnal bodies. The resurrection is so much more than just the physical body changing to a spirit body, that is when I believe we join in 'full' unity with God. But now we are "heirs" and have the "guarantee of our inheritance."

James 2:5  Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
v.28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

This Scripture in Luke that says "your redemption draws near" as Christ is literally returning. Christ had said when they first see the "sign of the Son of Man appear in heaven" that is when He will call them up to meet Him in the air, the first resurrection, then is their full redemption.

Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
v. 31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is nearóat the doors!

This passage in Ephesians puts the process the chosen go through in this life all together in a way that I think is clear.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
v. 4  even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
v. 5  He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved.
v. 7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
v. 8  which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
v. 9  making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ
v. 10  as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11  In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12  so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13  In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory. (ESV)

2Cor 5:4  For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
v. 5  Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Rom 8:23  And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

2Cor 5:6  So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
v. 7  For we walk by faith, not by sight.
v. 8  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 11:55:18 PM by Kat »
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cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2016, 04:41:27 AM »

Alex -

Dear Goerge,

Im a simple minded person so lets go one question at a time for my sake.

I believe Kat provided a sufficient responce in what Ray has said which I believe I did faithfuly present to Rick originally.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. You said "You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different." But I didn't say that though. I said there is only one word for Born and Concieved in greek which is 'Begotten.'

I am confused.

When did I address any of your Posted comments on this particular Topic?

I was responding to another post altogether.

I most certainly did not address you, or infer you said something that you did not state.

Kind Regards.

George
 
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2016, 04:59:32 AM »

Kat -

Thank you for these Scriptures:


Are we not now (in Our New man) in full union with Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ? Who is the real man or woman that is us, is it the Old (Carnal) Man (or Woman), or is it the New (Spiritual) Man (or Woman)? Are we not to take 'here a little, there a little' of these Scriptural Truths, in order to Find The Truth of anything? Are we clear minded on the Things of God, that Please Him - are we not like 'flint' never wavering? Are we merely to be observers until the Resurrection of Our Bodies - are we not to be 'doers of The Word' - and if 'doers' what is it that we must do, if not 'all things in Christ Jesus as our New Man'?

That first comment that I put in bold is what I cannot agree to... now all the rest of it is what I believe is being worked in the chosen at this time, yes the process has started and cannot fail to be completed. But what I'm saying is we are not in 'full' unity with God while still in these carnal bodies. The resurrection is so much more than just the physical body changing to a spirit body, that is when I believe we join in 'full' unity with God. But now we are "heirs" and have the "guarantee of our inheritance."

James 2:5  Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
v.28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

This Scripture in Luke that says "your redemption draws near" as Christ is literally returning. Christ had said when they first see the "sign of the Son of Man appear in heaven" that is when He will call them up to meet Him in the air, the first resurrection, then is their full redemption.

Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
v. 31  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is nearóat the doors!

This passage in Ephesians puts the process the chosen go through in this life all together in a way that I think is clear.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
v. 4  even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love
v. 5  He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,
v. 6  to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved.
v. 7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
v. 8  which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
v. 9  making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ
v. 10  as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.
v. 11  In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12  so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13  In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory. (ESV)

2Cor 5:4  For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
v. 5  Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Rom 8:23  And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

2Cor 5:6  So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
v. 7  For we walk by faith, not by sight.
v. 8  We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Regarding our New Man, I was merely pointing out what John The Baptist said, in that he must diminish (and continue to diminish), so Christ increases, and continues to increase.

Is this not a Parable of our Old Man (represented by John the Baptist's ministry) and Our New Man (In Christ)?

As our Old man diminishes, does not Our New Man increase?

Is not Our New Man in Christ (at all times)? I am not saying that we are yet complete in our maturity. I m stating that Our New Man is incorruptible (as He is always In Christ) - and to me, as Our New Man is in Christ - Our New Man must be in full union with Our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Is this not so? Have I misunderstood that Our internal two Witnesses of His Truths (Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ) communed, and continue to commune, with His Elect via their Holy Spirit to Our New Man; as The Elect are in Christ (Now) and Christ is in The Elect (Now) and Christ is in His Father (Now) and The Father is in His Son (Now)?

Can Our New Man commune with The Throne of Almighty God, and only be less than in full Union with The Father and The Son?

Has not The Father freely Given His Elect (in their New Man) of His Holy Spirit - and was it not Jesus Himself who gave us freely of His Holy Spirit?

Can a child (The Elect) have full union with their Father (Our Heavenly Father) without being as mature and complete as their Father?

If I am way off base, please forgive me - but to me, it is absolutely clear that as minors, children or maybe a little more mature Members of His Elect, they must be in full union (oneness) with Almighty God Himself - according to His Word.

Kind Regards.

George

 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2016, 10:38:44 AM »

Alex -

Dear Goerge,

Im a simple minded person so lets go one question at a time for my sake.

I believe Kat provided a sufficient responce in what Ray has said which I believe I did faithfuly present to Rick originally.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. You said "You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different." But I didn't say that though. I said there is only one word for Born and Concieved in greek which is 'Begotten.'

I am confused.

When did I address any of your Posted comments on this particular Topic?

I was responding to another post altogether.

I most certainly did not address you, or infer you said something that you did not state.

Kind Regards.

George

The post you quoted and adrressedd to IndianaBob was the post He quoted from me that I wrote. You were responding to my post without apparently realizing it. You did infer something I did not say. Please go back and re-read my post above on the first lage and then read what I dianabob wrote, he was merely quoting me and saying

'Thank you for your explanation Alex,
Very well put and helpful...
Much appreciated, Indianabob'

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cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2016, 11:48:26 AM »

Alex -

Alex -

Dear Goerge,

Im a simple minded person so lets go one question at a time for my sake.

I believe Kat provided a sufficient responce in what Ray has said which I believe I did faithfuly present to Rick originally.

God bless,
Alex

P.S. You said "You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different." But I didn't say that though. I said there is only one word for Born and Concieved in greek which is 'Begotten.'

I am confused.

When did I address any of your Posted comments on this particular Topic?

I was responding to another post altogether.

I most certainly did not address you, or infer you said something that you did not state.

Kind Regards.

George

The post you quoted and adrressedd to IndianaBob was the post He quoted from me that I wrote. You were responding to my post without apparently realizing it. You did infer something I did not say. Please go back and re-read my post above on the first lage and then read what I dianabob wrote, he was merely quoting me and saying

'Thank you for your explanation Alex,
Very well put and helpful...
Much appreciated, Indianabob'

Thank you for explaining:
 
I have now re read your Post that indianabob agreed to.

Are you stating that in the Greek language of the New Testament, the following is true:

1. That Conceived and Born are stated as 'Begotten' in the New Testament Greek Language - so we must determine when it means Conceived and Born.

2. That Jesus is the only one Born of God - and the Elect are all Conceived of God.

Quote
You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different.

Are you saying that I have Conceived, Born and Begotten mixed up - and I stated that something that you did not state - as what you are actually stating is:

A. Begotten can mean Born.

B. Begotten can mean Conceived.

If so, thank you for the clarity.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2016, 06:27:57 PM »

Quote
Regarding our New Man, I was merely pointing out what John The Baptist said, in that he must diminish (and continue to diminish), so Christ increases, and continues to increase.

Is this not a Parable of our Old Man (represented by John the Baptist's ministry) and Our New Man (In Christ)?

As our Old man diminishes, does not Our New Man increase?

I think you are embracing a theological concept that goes far beyond what scripture talks about as the "new man" or the "new humanity".  It seems to me to be core to some people's teaching, but not something that Ray espoused to any great extent, if at all.  If he did, I'd like to see it.

In short, it is no parable to say that I must decrease and He must increase.  In every way that John 'decreased', Jesus increased...in the natural, in the message, in the ministry, in the effect of all of it.

I don't think of myself as "having" a new man.  I think of myself as becoming a new man.  And this I see as a quite "practical" (in that Spiritual IS practical) experience, that leaves me not as two men, but as one man with an internal war going on.  I was too happy to get rid of the concept that *I* was a three-part 'person' to quickly put on the notion that now I am really TWO PEOPLE--one old and one new.  As far as I'm concerned, I am ONE PERSON who sometimes thinks and does NEW, and sometimes thinks and does OLD.  And THAT all by itself, is NEW.  Before, the "option" to do and think NEW didn't even exist in me.

If you want to argue the point with me, feel free.  I'm not a theologian.  But at the very least provide scripture that doesn't depend on a theological interpretation to be understood.  Otherwise, you'll lose me in the fog. 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2016, 07:14:16 PM »

Quote
Regarding our New Man, I was merely pointing out what John The Baptist said, in that he must diminish (and continue to diminish), so Christ increases, and continues to increase.

Is this not a Parable of our Old Man (represented by John the Baptist's ministry) and Our New Man (In Christ)?

As our Old man diminishes, does not Our New Man increase?

I think you are embracing a theological concept that goes far beyond what scripture talks about as the "new man" or the "new humanity".  It seems to me to be core to some people's teaching, but not something that Ray espoused to any great extent, if at all.  If he did, I'd like to see it.

In short, it is no parable to say that I must decrease and He must increase.  In every way that John 'decreased', Jesus increased...in the natural, in the message, in the ministry, in the effect of all of it.

I don't think of myself as "having" a new man.  I think of myself as becoming a new man.  And this I see as a quite "practical" (in that Spiritual IS practical) experience, that leaves me not as two men, but as one man with an internal war going on.  I was too happy to get rid of the concept that *I* was a three-part 'person' to quickly put on the notion that now I am really TWO PEOPLE--one old and one new.  As far as I'm concerned, I am ONE PERSON who sometimes thinks and does NEW, and sometimes thinks and does OLD.  And THAT all by itself, is NEW.  Before, the "option" to do and think NEW didn't even exist in me.

If you want to argue the point with me, feel free.  I'm not a theologian.  But at the very least provide scripture that doesn't depend on a theological interpretation to be understood.  Otherwise, you'll lose me in the fog.

Very much in agreement Dave with your understanding.


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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2016, 07:36:40 PM »

Rick I have been mulling over what to say to you. I have talked to many people about their experiences as parents and I believe that most of us harbour a special guilt regarding our first born children. They are our teachers in this business of parenting, the receivers of our mistakes as we fumble our way through.  I'm saying this to comfort you, so that you know that this is a shared phenomena, that we all learn this way.  I am so sorry for you and your loss.  I'm sorry for the deluge of feelings you must be sorting through now.  The memories you want to hang on to.  The memories you wish you could forget.  Your sister is weeping with you today.
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jingle52

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2016, 05:42:31 PM »

Rick,
I too offer my heartfelt condolences for your great loss and apologize for this late post. I know that time will heal this great sorrow, gaping wound and emptiness, but for now, please know that you are in all our thoughts and prayers. May the God of peace and understanding be with you in this trying time and comfort you and your family.

Jingle
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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2016, 01:49:46 PM »

Rick I have been mulling over what to say to you. I have talked to many people about their experiences as parents and I believe that most of us harbour a special guilt regarding our first born children. They are our teachers in this business of parenting, the receivers of our mistakes as we fumble our way through.  I'm saying this to comfort you, so that you know that this is a shared phenomena, that we all learn this way.  I am so sorry for you and your loss.  I'm sorry for the deluge of feelings you must be sorting through now.  The memories you want to hang on to.  The memories you wish you could forget.  Your sister is weeping with you today.


Hi LostAndfound ,

Its always difficult to find any words to say to someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one, one can even feel awkward at times as what to say.

I lost my wife Seven years earlier and the emotional pain takes time before one can heal. At the time of my wife's death I did not understand who God really was even that He is sovereign , I believed in free will and hell.

Today I understand many truths here at B.T. But these truths don't prevent the emotional upset I'm experiencing but unlike with my wife my grieving still hurts but today I have a strong foundation in Gods truths which make all the difference in the entire universe to me .

Today I understand that the death of my wife Donna and my son Rick J.r  died at their appointed time. I could ask God why but who am I to question the plan of God ? I still find tears in my eyes but God console me inwardly with His wonderful truths .

How blessed am I to be amongst the few who know and understand and believe these truths , I am very blessed by our creator.

i have no guilt in raising my son because I understand every decision I made along the way every choice I made had a cause behind it and that I never was free to make any other choice than the choice I did choose to make.

Everything in life is according to our Gods counsel which His children should not question because our Father is very wise and loving even though sometimes parts of Gods plans pains us to tears.

God bless and thank you my sister in Christ.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 01:53:54 PM by Rick »
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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2016, 01:59:46 PM »

Rick,
I too offer my heartfelt condolences for your great loss and apologize for this late post. I know that time will heal this great sorrow, gaping wound and emptiness, but for now, please know that you are in all our thoughts and prayers. May the God of peace and understanding be with you in this trying time and comfort you and your family.

Jingle


Thank you Jingle for your prayers, I would like to mention that you apologize for your late post but I should like to remind you my brother it was right on Gods timing and not one second late.

God bless to you my brother in Christ.
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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2016, 02:06:25 PM »

To Alex,George and Kat,

Thank you for your input into this thread and even all others too as it shed a brighter light in my understanding concerning my original question. I will revisit this thread when I can think with more clarity as I'm still mourning the lost of my son.

God bless.
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Kat

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2016, 01:07:42 PM »

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that over comes the world our faith.

Is it our faith in God having the knowledge of the truth ( Gods plan ) that overcomes the world ?

Hi Rick, I went back to your original post and this first part about our faith... I thought pulling together some of what Ray had said on this would be helpful.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm -----------------------------------

Yes, Matthew, we are "saved in grace through FAITH..." (Eph. 2:08), but even THAT FAITH is not our own until God GIVES IT TO US! Notice Rom. 12:4, "God IMPARTS to each the measure of FAITH." AFTER God gives us HIS faith, then it becomes OURS! Pretty simple, huh?


http://bible-truths.com/email7.htm ------------------------------------

Actually "faith" is pretty much the starting point in the life of a believer. That is why, in fact, we are called "believers." Belief in Jesus Christ IS faith.
Notice how Peter starts with faith as our first virtue upon which we add additional virtues:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue, and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness; And to godliness brother kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity [LOVE]" (II Pet. 1:5-7).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=13566.0 ---------

Heb 11:1  Now faith is substance of things hoped forÖ

No it's not, itís the "conviction" or Concordance has it "assumption." You assume what God says is correct. You 'assume' it, you donít have proof. If you had proof you wouldnít need faith. Faith is when you believe something that you donít have the absolute proof for. Thatís what faith is.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2910.0 ------------
 
"Faith" is not a "Bible" word, or a "religious" word: it is a WORD, and it has a meaning.  Here is a definition of faith from my American Heritge College Dictionary:  "faith--1 CONFIDENT BELIEF in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.  2. BELIEF that does not REST ON LOGICAL PROOF OR MATERIAL EVIDENCE....." etc.

Those are very good definitions of faith, but as one can clearly and instantly see these definitions go totally contrary to the way that the King James defines faith in Heb. 11:2, "Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Hogwash. Faith is the diametric opposite of "evidence and substance."  When one possesses absolute "substance and evidence" regarding any matter, the last thing on earth such a person needs is "faith!"
 
Just days ago I heard Rod Parsley quote that definition of faith from the King James Bible. No wonder they have not a clue as to anything SPIRITUAL.
 
Now then, faith is a word that has a definite meaning. Muslims have "faith" in Allah, and Christians have "faith" in the "God of Abraham," and some few have "faith" in the Scriptures that tell us how we are to have faith in God.  They are all "faiths" as you suggest, so are they not all the same?  No, of course not. The qauality or kind of faith one has is graded by what that particular faith accomplishes.  Do you rely on the God you have faith in, do you live a godly life because of it, do you love God and all humanity, are you overcoming the sins that God says He hates, etc., etc.?
 
Maybe a "tangible" example will help:
 
Money--you have money and I have money. It all "looks" like the same money.  But one can buy food for his family with his money and another can buy booze with his money and let his family go without. Is there a difference? You bet.
 
Guns--you have gun and I have a gun (both made by the same manufacturer). So our guns are the same, correct? There is no difference in your gun and my gun, correct?  Not at this point, but what do the two guns produce? One man shoots game to feed his family with his gun, while the other SHOOTS HIS FAMILY.  Is there a difference? You bet.
 
James has great and simple wisdom in this matter:  "Even so faith, if it has not works, IS DEAD...Yea a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me YOU faith [this is one kind] without works, and I will show you MY faith [this is a second kind] BY MY WORKS"  (James 2:17-18).
 
Two faiths, two entirely different manifestations of that faith.


http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm --------------------------------------

"And the word of God grows, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem multiplied tremendously, Besides, a vast throng of the priests OBEYED THE FAITH" (Acts 6:7, Concordant Version).

Wow! Imagine that: The collective teachings of Jesus which are classified as "THE faith" is something that can and MUST BE, OBEYED!

And the reason that faith must be obeyed is because of another marvelous doctrine that one is not likely to ever hear quoted at a Concordant meeting, and it is this:
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [image that, 'grace' is a VERB THAT DOES SOMETHING--IT TEACHES US SOMETHING. What?...] ...TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present world" (That again would be, The Apostle Paul to Titus, Titus 2:11-12).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1710.0.html ----

Let me "bottom line" it for you in a few statements.

Faith is the assurance that God's Word is Truth and that God will do all that He has promised.  This assurance (faith) is a GIFT of God and cannot be obtained by any human endeavor (Eph. 2:8-9).  Reading and hearing the Scriptures can increase your faith, BUT ONLY BECAUSE GOD SUPERNATURALLY GIVES YOU THAT FAITH AND ASSURANCE, as you read and hear.  Through faith you will both know God's will and live God's will.  You must go to God for faith--there is no other source of true spiritual faith and assurance of God's trustworthiness.

God be with you,

Ray
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lostANDfound

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2016, 01:45:49 PM »


Hi LostAndfound ,

Its always difficult to find any words to say to someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one, one can even feel awkward at times as what to say.


Oh you noticed that?  :)  In an effort to be empathetic I projected too much of my experience on you, sorry Rick!  And this is me with time to think before I type, just imagine me in real-time! 
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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2016, 05:27:59 PM »


Hi LostAndfound ,

Its always difficult to find any words to say to someone who is mourning the loss of a loved one, one can even feel awkward at times as what to say.


Oh you noticed that?  :)  In an effort to be empathetic I projected too much of my experience on you, sorry Rick!  And this is me with time to think before I type, just imagine me in real-time!


Hi LostAndfound,

I don't believe you were being to empathetic at all and I do appreciate your concern for my  devastation over the death of my son Richard.

There is much truth in all that you mentioned , parents do feel guilt when things go wrong in their offsprings life and I know I had these feeling long ago and had questioned everything I've done and blamed me for any failure with any of my family members.

I can relate to those things you mentioned and not only understand but have experience it first hand.

A few post back Dave from T made what I viewed as a profound statement when he said he was delightful when he discovered he was not three person but also rejected the fact that he was now two people in one body.

He is completely right because as scripture says man became a living soul not souls but soul.
At one time I believed many things that are contrary to my belief system today.

Once I believed parents were responsible for the outcome of their offspring but today I believe parents are accountable for how they turn out but God Himself is responsible.

Every parent wants their offspring to do better in life than they themselves did and so I too wanted wanted my offspring to better than me. I have to sons and one daughter but only one son lives but even though Richard is gone he's still my son .

My son Richard did not live with me but was staying at my home this past weekend and when I had went into my living room I found my son sitting up dead on my couch this past Saturday. Four days I've been in tears . Can you imagine what it's like to find your own son or daughter dead as I have?

This was Gods intention that this should befall me long before the world was made. I am one living soul who God chose to teach His truths to and it's these truths that give me so much hope in this age of deception ,corruption and pain we live in. What Job said is true the Lord gives and the Lord takes. I now know how God the Father felt in part when His son died too. Gods son was brutally murdered my son died a peaceful death. I thank God for that.

Please , don't apologize to me for the things you said , I'm thankful to God for all my sisters in Him .

God bless you .
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Flanagan

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2016, 10:22:23 PM »

Sorry to hear about your son Rick. Our prayers go out to you that you may have the" peace of God which surpasses all understanding"
Christ be with you, Flanagan
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