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Author Topic: 1 John 5: 4 .  (Read 3651 times)

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Rick

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1 John 5: 4 .
« on: July 30, 2016, 01:15:00 PM »

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that over comes the world our faith.

Is it our faith in God having the knowledge of the truth ( Gods plan ) that overcomes the world ?

John 5:18 which says does not sin . This part of scripture is deceiving to me because I hear from this site B.T. that Gods elect do sin and will continue to sin until death.

But John 5:18 Denys that .

But I can understand John 5:18 according to Psalms 32.2 which says Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

And also God says He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

So if one does sin and God does not count it against them , then for that one sin does not exist in the respect God does not recognize that one as sinning.

God bless.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 01:21:04 PM by Rick »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 07:28:58 PM »

What part of John 5:18 is about "does not sin"?


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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 08:56:14 PM »

Hi Dave,

We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Dave my heart is broken, my oldest son died today from a drug overdose . He's been back and forth with this drug issue and today I found my so dead.

I don't morn as the world does but it still hurts to the point of tears. I know my son does not know that he is dead but I do know he is gone .

I know there is a resurrection of the dead I know there is I know there is .

I think this is a good thread but you understand I don't care to Finnish it right now . It's hard to see.

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2016, 09:28:01 PM »

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that over comes the world our faith.

Is it our faith in God having the knowledge of the truth ( Gods plan ) that overcomes the world ?

John 5:18 which says does not sin . This part of scripture is deceiving to me because I hear from this site B.T. that Gods elect do sin and will continue to sin until death.

But John 5:18 Denys that .

But I can understand John 5:18 according to Psalms 32.2 which says Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

And also God says He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

So if one does sin and God does not count it against them , then for that one sin does not exist in the respect God does not recognize that one as sinning.

God bless.

Hi Rick,

Try looking at several translations and also remember that the word for 'born' and 'conceived' are the same word--Begotten.

The Greek does not distinguish between the two but the idea of being born of God and being conceived of God are vastly different.

For example, those born of God are powerful and invisible like the wind and do not sin but those conceived of God will continue to sin until they are birthed into God's kingdom at the Resurrection of the dead.

Here is another translation, the ISV --

1Jn 5:18  We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Here is another translation, the CLV --

1Jn 5:18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him."

(Rotherham)  We know that, whosoever hath been born of God, is not committing sin,—Nay, he that hath been born of God, He keepeth him, and, the wicked one, doth not touch him.

(YLT)  We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;


Now consider that it may be John meant exactly as the ISV translates, that we don't go on sinning but our sinning eventually comes to an end as we don't go on sinning day after day but we reign in that sin as God works in us. We know that as paul said, sin is not to REIGN in our mortal bodies but to RECKON ourselves dead and burried with Christ. That doesn't mean we stop sinning completely as whoever says they are without sin is a liar and makes God a liar for all sin but what it does mean is we aren't slaves to our old sinful carnal ways and we move onto maturity and perfection little by little, day by day, as God continues the work He began in us. The author and perfecter of our faith.

Alternatively, what John may have meant was that BORN of God STOP sinning which we know is true. Jesus is the only Begotten (BORN) Son of God and He did not sin! We also know that He is invisible and powerful as the wind as He was raised a spiritual body. At the Resurrection when we are birthed into God's Kingdom and are as He is, we too will no longer sin. For now we are conceived with the holy spirit as a down payment and promise of the future redemption to come.

So there is really two ways to look at this but I tend to look at it as John is speaking of those BORN (NOT concieved) of God as opposed to how I think the ISV is trying to portray it simply because the majority of LITERAL translations seem to imply at that moment one is 'BEGOTTEN' they stop sinning. This can only be true if the meaning for begotten is 'BORN' as opposed to 'CONCEIVED.'


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Kat

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 11:14:43 PM »


Rick, I'm so sorry to hear of the lose of your son, what a grievous thing to go through. I have 3 daughters and can only imagine how difficult the lose of one of them would be. It's good to have the understanding of the truth, but it does not make the immediate lose less, so I pray He will give you and your family comfort at this time.


mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John from Kentucky

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 05:57:22 AM »

Rick,

Sorry to hear of the death of your son.  You will see and be with him again.

John
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virginiabm

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 08:24:17 AM »

Rick, my heart breaks for you and I pray God will give you the comfort and peace in your heart and mind as you go through this heartache. We know we will see our loves ones again, but as Kat says we all suffer pain even thou we know. My God wrap you in HIS loving Arms.

IN Christ Jesus,
Virginia Miller
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Rhys

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 08:34:53 AM »

Sorry to hear of your loss Rick.

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope - Rom 15:13

Rhys
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Stacey

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 08:39:50 AM »

Sorry for your loss Rick. Hope you find peace through this trying time and take comfort in knowing you will be with your son again.
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Stacey

cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 10:23:12 AM »

Rick -

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world and this is the victory that over comes the world our faith.

Is it our faith in God having the knowledge of the truth ( Gods plan ) that overcomes the world ?

John 5:18 which says does not sin . This part of scripture is deceiving to me because I hear from this site B.T. that Gods elect do sin and will continue to sin until death.

But John 5:18 Denys that .

But I can understand John 5:18
according to Psalms 32.2 which says Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.

And also God says He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

So if one does sin and God does not count it against them , then for that one sin does not exist in the respect God does not recognize that one as sinning.


God bless.

I believe the True meaning is:

"It is 'The Faith of Christ, in His Elect and in you' that has overcome the world."

When you are dragged out of this world, you have been forgiven for your sins, because of His Love for you - and the proof of this is His Desire embedded in your new heart (that He gives you) and your 'continually being renewed' mind - that you desire to please Him and Serve Him by being obedient to all of His Holy Commandments. But the doing and keeping of 'All of His Commandments' is done by "Christ In you, and Christ's Faith in you (as He is in Our Father, and Our Heavenly Father is in Christ - and you are 'in Christ') - The Hope of Glory".


He therefore does not see your sin as He has pardoned you (albeit we must continue to always forgive others for all things done against us, and ask Him for forgive or pardon us for our sins).

I hope this helps a little.

Kind Regards.

Pardoned George
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cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 10:34:01 AM »

Rick -

Hi Dave,

We know that whosoever is born of God does not sin.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Dave my heart is broken, my oldest son died today from a drug overdose . He's been back and forth with this drug issue and today I found my so dead.

I don't morn as the world does but it still hurts to the point of tears. I know my son does not know that he is dead but I do know he is gone .

I know there is a resurrection of the dead I know there is I know there is .


I think this is a good thread but you understand I don't care to Finnish it right now . It's hard to see.

I too have a problem son, and he too is my eldest.

It has, and is still a very tough experience for him and the rest of my family, and very, very, painful for all of us - but I do know that the one who has suffered the most is my eldest son.

You know that your son is not lost, Rick, as Jesus Christ has promised to save that which was lost. I know that your pain must be unbearable for you, and also, for your family's pain must be unbearable to - and I will pray for you all.

You must not forget that He is Pure Love, and never, ever, loses any of His Children - and this includes your eldest son - whose spirit is now asleep in Our Heavenly Father's bosom, until He brings your eldest son back to life.

Deepest and Warmest Wishes to you and your family.

George

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Rene

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 11:47:28 AM »

Rick,

My deepest condolences to you and your family.  I hope you can find some comfort in knowing that the pains and grief of this age will one day be a thing of the pass.  Keeping you in my prayers.

Rev 21:4 - "And he will wipe away every tear out of their eyes,—and death shall be no more and grief and outcry and pain shall be no more: the first things have passed away.

René
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dave

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 12:12:34 PM »

Very sorry for your loss.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 12:19:58 PM »

I echo the many sympathies shared here Rick and will make extra effort to remember you in prayer.

God bless brother.

Love,
Alex
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Rick

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 02:49:08 PM »

Thank you all for your prayers and support.

God bless you all .
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indianabob

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2016, 03:31:57 PM »

Sincere condolences Rick,
I have lost a grandson at age 18 in an auto accident and also suffered loss.

We will be praying for you and your family.

Indiana Bob
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indianabob

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2016, 03:34:26 PM »

Thank you for your explanation Alex,
Very well put and helpful...
Much appreciated, Indiana Bob
= = =

Hi Rick,

Try looking at several translations and also remember that the word for 'born' and 'conceived' are the same word--Begotten.

The Greek does not distinguish between the two but the idea of being born of God and being conceived of God are vastly different.

For example, those born of God are powerful and invisible like the wind and do not sin but those conceived of God will continue to sin until they are birthed into God's kingdom at the Resurrection of the dead.

Here is another translation, the ISV --

1Jn 5:18  We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Here is another translation, the CLV --

1Jn 5:18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him."

(Rotherham)  We know that, whosoever hath been born of God, is not committing sin,—Nay, he that hath been born of God, He keepeth him, and, the wicked one, doth not touch him.

(YLT)  We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;


Now consider that it may be John meant exactly as the ISV translates, that we don't go on sinning but our sinning eventually comes to an end as we don't go on sinning day after day but we reign in that sin as God works in us. We know that as paul said, sin is not to REIGN in our mortal bodies but to RECKON ourselves dead and burried with Christ. That doesn't mean we stop sinning completely as whoever says they are without sin is a liar and makes God a liar for all sin but what it does mean is we aren't slaves to our old sinful carnal ways and we move onto maturity and perfection little by little, day by day, as God continues the work He began in us. The author and perfecter of our faith.

Alternatively, what John may have meant was that BORN of God STOP sinning which we know is true. Jesus is the only Begotten (BORN) Son of God and He did not sin! We also know that He is invisible and powerful as the wind as He was raised a spiritual body. At the Resurrection when we are birthed into God's Kingdom and are as He is, we too will no longer sin. For now we are conceived with the holy spirit as a down payment and promise of the future redemption to come.

So there is really two ways to look at this but I tend to look at it as John is speaking of those BORN (NOT concieved) of God as opposed to how I think the ISV is trying to portray it simply because the majority of LITERAL translations seem to imply at that moment one is 'BEGOTTEN' they stop sinning. This can only be true if the meaning for begotten is 'BORN' as opposed to 'CONCEIVED.'
[/quote]
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cjwood

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2016, 03:43:44 PM »


Dave my heart is broken, my oldest son died today from a drug overdose . He's been back and forth with this drug issue and today I found my so dead.



rick, i am so very sorry for the loss of your son. i cannot imagine the pain of losing your child. i was just speaking about this subject to my only daughter day before yesterday. please know that you are loved by us at this forum, and most especially by your God and Father.

may God's mercy, grace, and comfort be with you and all of your family during this difficult time.

claudia
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cheekie3

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2016, 04:35:13 PM »

indianabob -

Thank you for your explanation Alex,
Very well put and helpful...
Much appreciated, Indiana Bob
= = =

Hi Rick,

Try looking at several translations and also remember that the word for 'born' and 'conceived' are the same word--Begotten.

The Greek does not distinguish between the two but the idea of being born of God and being conceived of God are vastly different.

For example, those born of God are powerful and invisible like the wind and do not sin but those conceived of God will continue to sin until they are birthed into God's kingdom at the Resurrection of the dead.

Here is another translation, the ISV --

1Jn 5:18  We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Here is another translation, the CLV --

1Jn 5:18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him."

(Rotherham)  We know that, whosoever hath been born of God, is not committing sin,—Nay, he that hath been born of God, He keepeth him, and, the wicked one, doth not touch him.

(YLT)  We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;


Now consider that it may be John meant exactly as the ISV translates, that we don't go on sinning but our sinning eventually comes to an end as we don't go on sinning day after day but we reign in that sin as God works in us. We know that as paul said, sin is not to REIGN in our mortal bodies but to RECKON ourselves dead and burried with Christ. That doesn't mean we stop sinning completely as whoever says they are without sin is a liar and makes God a liar for all sin but what it does mean is we aren't slaves to our old sinful carnal ways and we move onto maturity and perfection little by little, day by day, as God continues the work He began in us. The author and perfecter of our faith.

Alternatively, what John may have meant was that BORN of God STOP sinning which we know is true. Jesus is the only Begotten (BORN) Son of God and He did not sin! We also know that He is invisible and powerful as the wind as He was raised a spiritual body. At the Resurrection when we are birthed into God's Kingdom and are as He is, we too will no longer sin. For now we are conceived with the holy spirit as a down payment and promise of the future redemption to come.

So there is really two ways to look at this but I tend to look at it as John is speaking of those BORN (NOT conceived) of God as opposed to how I think the ISV is trying to portray it simply because the majority of LITERAL translations seem to imply at that moment one is 'BEGOTTEN' they stop sinning. This can only be true if the meaning for begotten is 'BORN' as opposed to 'CONCEIVED.'
[/quote]

Interesting Post.

Please note the following definitions (and I know that there are many different definitions):

1. Begotton -Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered. A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring.

2. Born - born meaning, definition, what is born: to come out of a mother's body, and start to exist.

3. Conceived - To conceive is to get pregnant, to coming up with a plan or to imagine something. An example of conceive is when a man and a woman create a child.

You say that in the Greek, Born and Begotten are the same; and you say Conceived is different.

We know that in Mary, Jesus was Conceived by The Holy Spirit (of God Our Heavenly Father), so when Jesus was Born - was that the Time He was Begotton? Was Jesus not The Father's Son before He became a Man? Was He Conceived, Born and Begotten twice?

Parallel the Called Out, Called Out, Dragged Out, Elect of Christ's renewal - were The Elect not first Conceived by The Holy Spirit (of Our Heavenly Father)?: Does He then not state in a number of New Covenant Scriptures that His Elect were Begotten, past tense? If so, when did the Elect get their New Hearts of Flesh? Can His Elect (in this current Age) be purely only Conceived? Can something Conceived (even by The Holy Spirit) do anything at all while still in the (natural or spiritual) womb? Why do we have two sets of laws with authority over us - one being the 'law of sin and death' and the other being the 'law of the New Birth In Christ'? Whether we reckon ourselves dead to sin or not - is it not True that the part of us that sins is the part of us that is called 'the old man' or the 'first Adam'? Are we not to be the 'Second Adam, in Christ Himself', or rather be 'Part of The Body of Christ'? Surely, there are far too many Scriptures aimed at His Elect (in this current Age of Grace) for them only to apply to His Elect (in the next Age) when His Elect will have their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies.

I do not want to offend anyone, nor try to teach anything to anyone, as I know nothing - and only His Holy Spirit can reveal and teach any of us His Truths.

Perhaps, we should all meditate on this for a few hundred hours, as Ray may have said, in an attitude of Prayer before Him - as perhaps, we are maybe, belittling, who and what, we really are Now, in Christ.

Did Paul not state in I Corinthians 14:5 - For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Just Thinking Out Aloud Again.

George
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Kat

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Re: 1 John 5: 4 .
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2016, 05:39:34 PM »


We have these words (beget, born, conceive) being used and are being defined, here are a few things to consider.

In the Scripture when beget/begotten is used it's always describing the action of a man, whereas conceive always refers to what happens in a woman. Therefore you will notice that the word 'conceived' in not used to describe a person receiving the Holy Spirit, which comes from the Father (John 14:26; 15:26), so we are "begotten anew" (John 3:3, 7).

Now in the Greek there is only one word that is translated either born or begotten, so that is where it can get confusing. Here are a couple of emails on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3888.msg29544#msg29544 ----

There is but one word in the Greek manuscripts to represent "begotten," and "born."  Numerous Scriptures tell us that we are given in this life, only the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). Furthermore, Jesus told Necodemus that when one IS ACTUALLY "born again" he is like the wind (John 3:3-8). Christians are not powerful and invisible as the wind is, in this life. From these two truths, we can establish that we are "begotten" of God's Spirit in this life, but we will not be "BORN of God's Spirit" until the resurrection to immortality (I Cor. 15:42-54).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ------

Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten."  Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born."  The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only;  we have eonian life in earnest only;  we have understanding and perception in earnest only.  In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind,"  "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2). 

God be with you,
Ray
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