New Testament Scriptural Definition of Sin

[cheekie3]

All -

Does anyone know if Ray provided two or three New Testament Scriptures that defined 'sin' please.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

Here are a couple of places sin is explained.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2302.0 ------------

> Hi L. Ray,
>
> One question? Only one. Very simple. If God controls everything,
> then what is sin?
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> Chad


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 3:23  for all have sinned(G264) and fall short of the glory of God,

Strong's definition
G264
hamartanō; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -------------------------------------------

Read Mat. 7:18-23. Our Lord speaks of a large group of people (many), " ... in that day," who will justify their Christian walk by: "prophesying in Christ's name," "casting out demons," and "doing many wonderful works." (Ver. 22). Sounds pretty good to me. But there seems to be a problem when Christ says: " ... depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Ver. 23).

"Iniquity" is not the proper translation here. The Greek word is anomon-UN-LAWness or LAWLESSNESS. Man thinks by nature he is above the law in that "free will" is, itself, lawless. Thinking himself equipped with "free will" man feels a certain equality with his Creator. "Human free will," therefore, becomes the epitome of man's lawlessness. Man thinks himself a potter. However, to man's chagrin, God says He is the Potter and man is the "pot" (Isa. 64:08).

And God hates pride (Prov. 6:17, 16;18, 29:23), which is the bed-buddy of human "free will."

Anyone who is so deluded as to think he possesses powers so great as to be able to thwart the very Will of God, is certainly disqualified from being a teacher of the Word of God!

"Sin is lawlessness" (I Jn. 3:4). Free will is lawlessness.
v

Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simple confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Flanagan]

That was very good Kat , Thank you,  We're all fortunate to have you on the forum.

[stello]

Good morning Flanagan and everyone !!!

We are indeed very blessed to have Kat here with us. I'm still young in the faith but as i grow i understand more and more that God is totally in control of everything. Just wanted to say that to say this: "being fortunate or lucky" i believe is not really accurate as it implies events occurring outside of God's will. At least that's how i view it. This wasn't meant as a rebuke just wanted to share my thoughts on being "fortunate".

Of course i could be very wrong! In which case i am willing to learn. I love you my brother Flanagan and everyone else!!!   have a blessed day.

stello

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for your Post; and as always, it is very helpful:

Here are a couple of places sin is explained.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2302.0 ------------

> Hi L. Ray,
>
> One question? Only one. Very simple. If God controls everything,
> then what is sin?
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> Chad


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 3:23  for all have sinned(G264) and fall short of the glory of God,

Strong's definition
G264
hamartanō; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -------------------------------------------

Read Mat. 7:18-23. Our Lord speaks of a large group of people (many), " ... in that day," who will justify their Christian walk by: "prophesying in Christ's name," "casting out demons," and "doing many wonderful works." (Ver. 22). Sounds pretty good to me. But there seems to be a problem when Christ says: " ... depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Ver. 23).

"Iniquity" is not the proper translation here. The Greek word is anomon-UN-LAWness or LAWLESSNESS. Man thinks by nature he is above the law in that "free will" is, itself, lawless. Thinking himself equipped with "free will" man feels a certain equality with his Creator. "Human free will," therefore, becomes the epitome of man's lawlessness. Man thinks himself a potter. However, to man's chagrin, God says He is the Potter and man is the "pot" (Isa. 64:08).

And God hates pride (Prov. 6:17, 16;18, 29:23), which is the bed-buddy of human "free will."

Anyone who is so deluded as to think he possesses powers so great as to be able to thwart the very Will of God, is certainly disqualified from being a teacher of the Word of God!

"Sin is lawlessness" (I Jn. 3:4). Free will is lawlessness.
v

Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simple confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

The only definition, I have so far found is that 'sin is the transgression of Our Heavenly Father's Royal Law'; and every man and and woman from Adam and Eve has 'transgressed His Royal Law' - which is sin.

I John 3:4: KJV:

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Kind Regards.

George

[rick]

Hi George,


And those who live by the law will also perish by the law.

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Hi:

Hi George,


And those who live by the law will also perish by the law.

God bless.

Are you referring to this Scripture:

Romans 2:12: KJV:

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Kind Regards.

George

[rick]

Hello George,

Yes , I'm referring to that scripture . I was reading in the lake of fire how Ray had pointed out that Paul when he was then Saul came pretty close to living up to the Ten Commandments maybe even the six hundred mosaic laws and that Saul was at his heights when he became the worst sinner on planet earth.

Also scripture says all have fallen short of Gods glory and not one seeks after Him. If one try's to find justification through obeying the law he will be condemned by the very law he thought would bring life but can only bring death. Christ is ones only hope for there is no other name under heaven where man can be saved.

God bless.

[cheekie3]

Rick -

Thank you for confirming this:

Hello George,

Yes , I'm referring to that scripture . I was reading in the lake of fire how Ray had pointed out that Paul when he was then Saul came pretty close to living up to the Ten Commandments maybe even the six hundred mosaic laws and that Saul was at his heights when he became the worst sinner on planet earth.

Also scripture says all have fallen short of Gods glory and not one seeks after Him. If one try's to find justification through obeying the law he will be condemned by the very law he thought would bring life but can only bring death. Christ is ones only hope for there is no other name under heaven where man can be saved.

God bless.

I know that the law came from Moses and Grace and Truth is via Jesus Christ (and Jesus came to fulfil the Law of Moses - which was up to John The Baptist) - and we are not under law but under Grace - yet, are we not commanded to obey His Commandments (why say ye you love me, when you do not do as I say) - and are not His Commandments 'Law' - the higher 'Law' that Jesus taught His followers - and is this higher 'Law' not sometimes called the 'Royal Law' and other times called the 'Law of Christ'?

Did not Jesus say that if we lust at a woman - it is if we have done the deed - so Jesus was confirming that His Commandments were higher than the Mosaic Law - which only via The Faith of Jesus Christ can any man or woman be in a position to do His Commandments.

What then are His Commandments?

John 14:15: KJV:
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Acts 1:2: KJV:
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1 Corinthians 7:19: KJV:
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 14:37: KJV:
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:2: KJV:
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

1 John 2:3: KJV:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4: KJV:
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22: KJV:
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24: KJV:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2: KJV:
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3: KJV:
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:16: KJV:
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in

Revelation 12:17: KJV:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12: KJV:
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14: KJV:
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What is the Royal Law, or The Law of Christ, or The Law of Faith?

Romans 3:27: KJV:
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:31: KJV:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 Corinthians 9:21: KJV:
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Galatians 6:2: KJV:
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Hebrews 10:16: KJV:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

James 2:8: KJV:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

I am not saying that I understand anything - but it appears to me that the knowledge of The New Testament leads us to conclude that:

1. The Law of Moses and The Prophets were until Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus Christ fulfilled The Mosaic Law.
3. Jesus Commanded His followers to obey His Commandments.
4. His Commandments need to be obeyed; and if His followers must obey His Commandments - it must mean that His Commandments are 'Law'.
5. Only via the Faith of Jesus Christ can His followers obey His Commandments under The Grace of God.
6. Faith in, or, The Faith of Jesus Christ, has a 'Law'.
7. He has written His Commandments (the higher Law), in the hearts and minds of His followers.

Am I wrong in my conclusions?

I do not know for sure.

Are we all not here to learn (and keep) the absolute Truths of Our Heavenly Father?

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

What really is the law? Could it be that God's perfect way of living is made known in a righteous code and written down for us in His laws and statues and we see His precepts all through the Scripture. But it seems that the basic idea all comes down to what Christ says.

Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
v. 38  This is the first and great commandment.
v. 39  And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
v. 40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The law is to show us what is right and good and therefore reveals what sin is and how far from God's righteousness we are, as no human that has ever lived (accept Christ of course) can possibly live up to the laws of God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So by our very inborn carnal nature we are enmity with God, undeniably sinners, and our inability to obey His laws proves it to us over and over again.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
v. 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 11:32  For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.

Only when Christ's Spirit becomes indwelling and it will continue to increase and our carnality continues to decrease until we are God centered in our actual way of thinking. Then His laws/ways become our ways, because our whole attitude changes and we, through Christ are overcomers.

Heb 10:15  The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us; for after He had said before,
v. 16  "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
v. 17  also He adds, "their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."

Rom 11:27  For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."

1John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
v. 4  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hello George,

I believe Kat made and excellent observation in what our sister says and if I were to add anything it would be something I'm coming to terms with and that is its not us doing any of these things but Christ is doing the work through us.

And from what Christ does through us our hearts and minds are being renewed day by day understanding in and of ourselves we can do nothing except go through life as carnal minded people which is how God created us.

I'm starting to understand that every thing the word of God tells us to do we cannot do any of it on our own except Christ performs it in us.

God bless.

[lilitalienboi16]

In the FAQ there are some emails of ray on just what is the law, and the covenent, and how does it fit into the new testament. Certainly relavent here.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html

So the law given to Moses, that is the 10 commandments, is spiritual.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----

The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual."  "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------

   It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14).  ONLY  "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.

---------------

And what commandment tells us the law was spiritual the whole time? The 10th, 'and don't ecen think about it!'

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:6 but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Indeed, i think romans chapter 7 sums it all up nicely for us.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 BUT AFTER THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ is the end of the law, our covering, our righreousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God bless,
Alex

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for these Scriptures and very valid points. Very Intriguing!:

What really is the law? Could it be that God's perfect way of living is made known in a righteous code and written down for us in His laws and statues and we see His precepts all through the Scripture. But it seems that the basic idea all comes down to what Christ says.

Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
v. 38  This is the first and great commandment.
v. 39  And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
v. 40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

The law is to show us what is right and good and therefore reveals what sin is and how far from God's righteousness we are, as no human that has ever lived (accept Christ of course) can possibly live up to the laws of God.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So by our very inborn carnal nature we are enmity with God, undeniably sinners, and our inability to obey His laws proves it to us over and over again.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
v. 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 11:32  For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.

Only when Christ's Spirit becomes indwelling and it will continue to increase and our carnality continues to decrease until we are God centered in our actual way of thinking. Then His laws/ways become our ways, because our whole attitude changes and we, through Christ are overcomers.

Heb 10:15  The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us; for after He had said before,
v. 16  "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
v. 17  also He adds, "their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."

Rom 11:27  For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."

1John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
v. 4  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I understand that in essence, The Holy Scriptures are all about God and man, The Creator and His Creation, and the Rules that Our Heavenly Father has Commanded mankind to live by, for a good and orderly life.

So, whether we call His Ordinances, Law or Commandments, He has told us in His Word that there is a Right way to live - both in the Old Covenant and also in the New Covenant.

Man is weak and cannot obey His Commandments, so He gave us the remedy - via The Faith of Jesus Grace through His Grace (and Peace).

I know that The Scriptures state that The Law (of Moses) is meant for sinners and not for the Righteous - and we are not under Law but under Grace.

Yet, in the New Covenant Jesus Commanded His Elect to obey a higher Law and to obey all the Commandments of God.

If the Elect were sinners that sinned, and should now be saints (and no longer sinners - and sinners are those that break God's Law) that sin not (or at least have sin not dominate their lives - as sin is the transgression of His Law) - and yet the Elect are to obey all His Commandments - and Jesus Himself stated that we should always seek to do 'His Will and not our own will' - then, His Elect must have to obey His Word - and 'Do what He says' if His Elect claim to Love Him.

So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him? What does it mean to obey Him? Is it not the need to obey His spiritual Law? Were His Elect not told that the Law of Moses was spiritual; and the Old Testament people of God were carnal and could not obey His spiritual Law. Why then did Jesus expand on God's Law - showing that desiring to lust, is the same as committing that lust in God's Eyes?

Are not His Elect The Temple of God, where His Holy Spirit dwells? Must not His Elect Obey (Worship) Him in Spirit and in Truth?

What is True Worship? Is it not Obeying Him?

How can His Elect Obey Him?

His Elect, must live in The faith of Jesus Christ, under His Grace, by His Holy Spirit - and Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth - and He has written His Law in their hearts and minds - and He continues to renew their minds to the Mind of Christ!

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

If He has mandated that His Elect must have His Laws in the Elects' minds and written in the Elects' hearts - does this mean that 'His Laws' must be paramount and cannot ever be done away with?

That is The Question!

Is this one of His Absolute Truths?

What do you think?

Am I way off base here?

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Rick -

So True:

Hello George,

I believe Kat made and excellent observation in what our sister says and if I were to add anything it would be something I'm coming to terms with and that is its not us doing any of these things but Christ is doing the work through us.

And from what Christ does through us our hearts and minds are being renewed day by day understanding in and of ourselves we can do nothing except go through life as carnal minded people which is how God created us.

I'm starting to understand that every thing the word of God tells us to do we cannot do any of it on our own except Christ performs it in us.

God bless.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Alex -

Thanks for Posting these invaluable Scriptures; together with Ray's insightful responses to questions about the Old Testament and New Testament (spiritual) Laws of Our Heavenly Father:

In the FAQ there are some emails of ray on just what is the law, and the covenent, and how does it fit into the new testament. Certainly relavent here.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15180.0.html

So the law given to Moses, that is the 10 commandments, is spiritual.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6442.0.html -----

The OLD LAW was and still is "spiritual."  "For we know that the LAW [the one they always had] IS SPIRITUAL" (Rom. 7:14).

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4115.0.html -----------

   It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14).  ONLY  "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.

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And what commandment tells us the law was spiritual the whole time? The 10th, 'and don't ecen think about it!'

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:6 but now we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Indeed, i think romans chapter 7 sums it all up nicely for us.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 BUT AFTER THAT FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ is the end of the law, our covering, our righreousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God bless,
Alex

Ray went to great lengths to compare and distinguish between Almighty God's Old Testament Law (Covenant) and the New Testament Law (Covenant).

Ray did indeed confirm that there are two (spiritual) Covenants - and the Called try to live in both the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) and the New Covenant (The higher Law of Christ) - and the parable of the old and new wine tells us that we are not to mix the two - as this leads to the corruption of both - the old Covenant (for babes) leads His Elect to the New Covenant (for mature sons and daughters).

I do not understand your reference to the tenth Commandment given by Almighty God to Moses:

Thou shalt not covet.

Exodus 20:17: KJV:
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's."

Romans 7:7: KJV:
"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Am I missing something here - as do not these Covenants both fall under His Laws?

Are you saying that Law no longer applies to His Elect?

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

I know that The Scriptures state that The Law (of Moses) is meant for sinners and not for the Righteous - and we are not under Law but under Grace.

Yet, in the New Covenant Jesus Commanded His Elect to obey a higher Law and to obey all the Commandments of God.

If the Elect were sinners that sinned, and should now be saints (and no longer sinners - and sinners are those that break God's Law) that sin not (or at least have sin not dominate their lives - as sin is the transgression of His Law) - and yet the Elect are to obey all His Commandments - and Jesus Himself stated that we should always seek to do 'His Will and not our own will' - then, His Elect must have to obey His Word - and 'Do what He says' if His Elect claim to Love Him.

So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him? What does it mean to obey Him? Is it not the need to obey His spiritual Law? Were His Elect not told that the Law of Moses was spiritual; and the Old Testament people of God were carnal and could not obey His spiritual Law. Why then did Jesus expand on God's Law - showing that desiring to lust, is the same as committing that lust in God's Eyes?

Are not His Elect The Temple of God, where His Holy Spirit dwells? Must not His Elect Obey (Worship) Him in Spirit and in Truth?

What is True Worship? Is it not Obeying Him?

How can His Elect Obey Him?

His Elect, must live in The faith of Jesus Christ, under His Grace, by His Holy Spirit - and Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth - and He has written His Law in their hearts and minds - and He continues to renew their minds to the Mind of Christ!

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

If He has mandated that His Elect must have His Laws in the Elects' minds and written in the Elects' hearts - does this mean that 'His Laws' must be paramount and cannot ever be done away with?

That is The Question!

Is this one of His Absolute Truths?

What do you think?

Am I way off base here?

Kind Regards.

George

Well if you consider that His laws represents His perfect righteousness, as I do, then yes it will never be done away with.

So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him?

God's grace redeems us or bought and paid for us because of the penalty that the law brought on us by of our sin.

Gal 4:4  But when the right time finally came, God sent His own Son. He came as the son of a human mother and lived under the Jewish Law,
v. 5  to redeem (G1805) those who were under the Law, so that we might become God's children. (GNB)

G1805
exagorazō - to buy up, that is, ransom; figuratively to rescue from loss (improve opportunity): - redeem.

Rom 3:23  since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
v. 24  By His grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus,
v. 25  whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past. (ISV)

As long as we are in this carnal flesh and blood body we cannot live perfectly, sinless, we require to be redeemed and freed now from the penalty of the law, which is death and that's through "Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2) and give us life in the Spirit - "if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom 8:10).

In these Scripture passages, Paul explains why we are no longer 'under' the law, I used some modern translations, it just makes it a bit easier to read.

Rom 7:6  Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.
v. 7  Shall we say, then, that the Law itself is sinful? Of course not! But it was the Law that made me know what sin is. If the Law had not said, "Do not desire what belongs to someone else," I would not have known such a desire.

Rom 7:12  So then, the Law itself is holy, and the commandment is holy, right, and good.
v. 13  But does this mean that what is good caused my death? By no means! It was sin that did it; by using what is good, sin brought death to me, in order that its true nature as sin might be revealed. And so, by means of the commandment sin is shown to be even more terribly sinful.
v. 14  We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin. (GNB)

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24  O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25  I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Gal 3:10  Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God's curse!" (Deu 27:26)
v. 11  Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, "Only the person who is put right with God through faith shall live."
v. 12  But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, "Whoever does everything the Law requires will live."
v. 13  But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings; for the scripture says, "Anyone who is hanged on a tree is under God's curse."
v. 14  Christ did this in order that the blessing which God promised to Abraham might be given to the Gentiles by means of Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the Spirit promised by God.

Gal 3:17  What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law, which was given four hundred and thirty years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God's promise.
v. 18  For if God's gift depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on His promise. However, it was because of His promise that God gave that gift to Abraham.
v. 19  What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham's descendant, to whom the promise was made. The Law was handed down by angels, with a man acting as a go-between (mediator).
v. 20  But a go-between is not needed when only one person is involved; and God is one.
v. 21  Does this mean that the Law is against God's promises? No, not at all! For if human beings had received a law that could bring life, then everyone could be put right with God by obeying it.
v. 22  But the scripture says that the whole world is under the power of sin; and so the gift which is promised on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe.
v. 23  But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up (G3807 - a tutor - instructor, schoolmaster) as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.
v. 24  And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith.
v. 25  Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.
v. 26  It is through faith that all of you are God's children in union with Christ Jesus.

v. 29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (GNB)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you for sharing these Scriptures about the Law of Sin and Death, and Our redemption which is in Christ Jesus through His Faith and by the Grace of God.

This is very helpful:

I know that The Scriptures state that The Law (of Moses) is meant for sinners and not for the Righteous - and we are not under Law but under Grace.

Yet, in the New Covenant Jesus Commanded His Elect to obey a higher Law and to obey all the Commandments of God.

If the Elect were sinners that sinned, and should now be saints (and no longer sinners - and sinners are those that break God's Law) that sin not (or at least have sin not dominate their lives - as sin is the transgression of His Law) - and yet the Elect are to obey all His Commandments - and Jesus Himself stated that we should always seek to do 'His Will and not our own will' - then, His Elect must have to obey His Word - and 'Do what He says' if His Elect claim to Love Him.

So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him? What does it mean to obey Him? Is it not the need to obey His spiritual Law? Were His Elect not told that the Law of Moses was spiritual; and the Old Testament people of God were carnal and could not obey His spiritual Law. Why then did Jesus expand on God's Law - showing that desiring to lust, is the same as committing that lust in God's Eyes?

Are not His Elect The Temple of God, where His Holy Spirit dwells? Must not His Elect Obey (Worship) Him in Spirit and in Truth?

What is True Worship? Is it not Obeying Him?

How can His Elect Obey Him?

His Elect, must live in The faith of Jesus Christ, under His Grace, by His Holy Spirit - and Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth - and He has written His Law in their hearts and minds - and He continues to renew their minds to the Mind of Christ!

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

If He has mandated that His Elect must have His Laws in the Elects' minds and written in the Elects' hearts - does this mean that 'His Laws' must be paramount and cannot ever be done away with?

That is The Question!

Is this one of His Absolute Truths?

What do you think?

Am I way off base here?

Kind Regards.

George

Well if you consider that His laws represents His perfect righteousness, as I do, then yes it will never be done away with.

So if His Elect are no longer under Law but are now under Grace - why must His Elect 'Do All His Commandments'? Is this not the same as obeying Him?

God's grace redeems us or bought and paid for us because of the penalty that the law brought on us by of our sin.

Gal 4:4  But when the right time finally came, God sent His own Son. He came as the son of a human mother and lived under the Jewish Law,
v. 5  to redeem (G1805) those who were under the Law, so that we might become God's children. (GNB)

G1805
exagorazō - to buy up, that is, ransom; figuratively to rescue from loss (improve opportunity): - redeem.

Rom 3:23  since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
v. 24  By His grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus,
v. 25  whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past. (ISV)

As long as we are in this carnal flesh and blood body we cannot live perfectly, sinless, we require to be redeemed and freed now from the penalty of the law, which is death and that's through "Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2) and give us life in the Spirit - "if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom 8:10).

In these Scripture passages, Paul explains why we are no longer 'under' the law, I used some modern translations, it just makes it a bit easier to read.

Rom 7:6  Now, however, we are free from the Law, because we died to that which once held us prisoners. No longer do we serve in the old way of a written law, but in the new way of the Spirit.
v. 7  Shall we say, then, that the Law itself is sinful? Of course not! But it was the Law that made me know what sin is. If the Law had not said, "Do not desire what belongs to someone else," I would not have known such a desire.

Rom 7:12  So then, the Law itself is holy, and the commandment is holy, right, and good.
v. 13  But does this mean that what is good caused my death? By no means! It was sin that did it; by using what is good, sin brought death to me, in order that its true nature as sin might be revealed. And so, by means of the commandment sin is shown to be even more terribly sinful.
v. 14  We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin. (GNB)

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24  O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25  I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Gal 3:10  Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God's curse!" (Deu 27:26)
v. 11  Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, "Only the person who is put right with God through faith shall live."
v. 12  But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, "Whoever does everything the Law requires will live."
v. 13  But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings; for the scripture says, "Anyone who is hanged on a tree is under God's curse."
v. 14  Christ did this in order that the blessing which God promised to Abraham might be given to the Gentiles by means of Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the Spirit promised by God.

Gal 3:17  What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law, which was given four hundred and thirty years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God's promise.
v. 18  For if God's gift depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on His promise. However, it was because of His promise that God gave that gift to Abraham.
v. 19  What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham's descendant, to whom the promise was made. The Law was handed down by angels, with a man acting as a go-between (mediator).
v. 20  But a go-between is not needed when only one person is involved; and God is one.
v. 21  Does this mean that the Law is against God's promises? No, not at all! For if human beings had received a law that could bring life, then everyone could be put right with God by obeying it.
v. 22  But the scripture says that the whole world is under the power of sin; and so the gift which is promised on the basis of faith in Jesus Christ is given to those who believe.
v. 23  But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up (G3807 - a tutor - instructor, schoolmaster) as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed.
v. 24  And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith.
v. 25  Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.
v. 26  It is through faith that all of you are God's children in union with Christ Jesus.

v. 29  And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (GNB)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

This is a difficult issue to fully understand.

I understand that most (but not all) New Testament Scriptures that relate to 'Law', are referring to 'The Law of Sin and Death' that has dominion of all carnal men and women because of 'sin'.

If 'sin' is the transgression of 'Law', then we all need to be 'pardoned', and we need to stop being 'carnal'.

How can we be free from the dominion of 'sin'?

By becoming a 'New Creature' in Christ Jesus', whereby we are baptised into His Body (The Elect); and His Holy Spirit indwells us, as we become part of His Temple.

It is His Spirit in us, that enables us to no longer desire to 'sin' and 'transgress His Law'.

But His Commandments that we must obey can only be obeyed in Spirit and in Truth.

As Jesus said, 'my will is to do the Will of My Father'.

That is my desire too, and it has been for many years.

It is Christ in Me, that in Spirit, enables us to desire, to no longer 'transgress His Royal Law'.

Are not The Holy Scriptures a Book of His Laws; with instructions to each one of us, on how to live a Righteous Life, in Spirit and In Truth - pleasing to Our Heavenly Father?

Are we free to choose not to obey His Royal Law?

Is Our Heavenly Father not Our Lawgiver?

If All Law is no longer required to be obeyed, why are there so many New Testament Scriptures stating that we must obey His Law:

Romans 2:13: KJV:
(for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 2:18: KJV:
and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

Romans 2:18: KJV:
thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Romans 2:26: KJV:
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Romans 3:27: KJV:
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(So, do we conclude that Faith has a Law?)

Romans 3:27: KJV:
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 7:22: KJV:
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 7:25 KJV:
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 KJV:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(So, do we have The Law of The Spirit Of Life in Christ Jesus, which made us free, from the law of sin and death?)

Romans 8:7 KJV:
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(So, are His Elect to be subject to The Law of God?)

1 Corinthians 9:21: KJV:
to them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

(So, are His Elect under The Law of Christ?)

1 Corinthians 4:34: KJV:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Galatians 5:14: KJV:
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(So, can we Love our neighbour as ourselves, without His Law?)

Galatians 6:2: KJV:
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

(So, are The Elect to fulfil The Law of Christ?)

Hebrews 7:12: KJV:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(So, was the Law changed for His Elect?)

Hebrews 8:10: KJV:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

(So, are The Elect to have His Laws put in their minds and written in their hearts?)

Hebrews 10:16: KJV:
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(So, are The Elect to have His Laws put in their hearts and written in their minds?)

James 1:25: KJV:
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

(So, are His Elect to look into the Perfect Law of Liberty?)

James 2:8: KJV:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

(So, are His Elect to fulfil His Royal Law?)

James 2:12: KJV:
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(So, are His Elect to be judged by The Law of Liberty?)

To me, His Law (and Laws) are enshrined within His Word; and we must be careful to determine which Law or Laws is referenced in particular Scriptures.

I am sorry to go on and on about this.

But I do not see that we can ever be free from Our Heavenly Lawgiver, and His Holy and Spiritual Laws - which He Commands us to obey (In The Faith of Jesus Christ) via His Grace; so that wee can Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth - by obeying His Commandments.

Is not all of our natural environment governed by His Laws?

Although we are under His Grace, to me, it appears that we are also to obey His Royal Law (in Spirit and in Truth).

If I am wrong, then I am wrong.

All I know, is that I will continue to seek His Knowledge of His Truths - as He has put this desire in my heart and in my mind.

Kind Regards.

George

[Dave in Tenn]

That "sin is the transgression of the law" is, to my mind, not the definition of sin.  SIN is a word--not a bible-word or a theological concept. 

Here's what Paul wrote about his OWN experience with "law-keeping" among other things.

Php 3:4  Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

No amount of theologizing and "defining scripturally" can make "blameless according to the law" mean something other than loss, or dung compared to what replaced it in Paul's own life.

Why does he speak in such strong terms?

Php 3:1  Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
Php 3:2  Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Php 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

All I can tell you is, you've either discovered this or you haven't.  You've either fallen or you haven't.  You've either recognized within yourt own spirit that alms-giving, tithing, circumcision, fasting, et al CAN BE SIN or you haven't. You've either seen the man of perdition revealed even if you are "Blameless according to the 'righteousness' which is the law" or you haven't.  I don't "agree with Paul" out of theological necessity.  I agree with Paul in that I've lived this too, though *my* "law" was not solely and exclusively the Law of Moses.  This is where I start, and no "understanding" of these things that doesn't include this (and other passages) is or can be "true". 

[lilitalienboi16]

Well George, the way I understand it is, the law was and is spiritual, and it was the 10th commandment, 'don't covet', i.e. don't lust, i.e. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, that proved this to paull. after all, isn't that what Jesus said, don't even think about it? Dont lust after a woman in your heart, not just don't fornicate with her but don't even think about it!

So the old covenent is the ten commandments, which is part of the law of Moses, but the problem wasn't with the 10 commandments, it was with the heart of man, so the law came so that all might be found guilty, and then, a change was made, a new covenent which was to be written on the hearts of believers that to allow us to exceed in righteousness of the pharisees. That would make us able and spiritual, having life. How? Well the pharisees are trying to keep the law, which is spiritual, without Christ, with their filthy rags, which cannot be done for no man has power to not THINK (lust, covet) though he may outwardly appear to be righteouss and holy. But there is ONE WHO CAN keep Himself from coveting--JESUS. As the new covenent, He making His home in us, takes us beyond the just looking righteous to truly becoming holy by changing our hearts and minds. Yet if you try and keep that spiritual law of yourself, as all of israel after the flesh is trying, you will invariably fail because the 10th commandment will condemn you.

Jesus also showed us just how spiritual God's law is, i.e. love your enemies, don't hate them! Don't even THINK about hating your brother or you might as well have murdered him. But in Jesus our righteousness is fullfilled. He will complete us.

Hopefully this helps some. Its how I understand things. I also understand this is a difficult topic.
God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Hi George, certainly Christ made it clear that He was not doing away with the laws, but fulfilling them.

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
v. 18  For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The thing is we cannot stop being carnal, as long as we are in these fleshly bodies we will sin, we are not perfected while in the flesh. That's what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 in saying v. 25 "with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin," so not perfect. It takes something more than our obeying perfectly.

1John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
v. 10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.  (also Php 3:12 below)

Well what about this verse "Whoever abides IN Him does not sin" (1John 3:6)? Notice what John had just stated in verse 5 "He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." That's how we have no sin, we are IN Him. 

Yes indeed the chosen certainly are overcomers (1 John 4:4), are "set free from sin" (Rom 6:22), but only by Christ's blood covering our sin past, present and future, not because we can live perfect and sinless, but we're "justified by His grace" (Titus 3:7).

Gal 2:16  knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

Col 1:14  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
v. 8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Eph 1:7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

Rev 1:5  and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Yes if His Spirit is indwelling then you are being prepared and perfected, but that takes the rest of your life in the flesh. Our sinning is often a learning lesson by which His chastening is teaching us something, how can He chasten if we literally do not sin?

Heb 12:6  For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives."

Php 3:8  Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
v. 9  and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith IN Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
v. 10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
v. 11  if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
v. 12  Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat