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Giving thanks for all things?

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octoberose:
Awe Gee John, and you were doing so good . We'll just agree to disagree. Ribbit.  ;)
  Colin, wow, I just have never been the one to dig deep into Greek- but it makes all the difference.  Were you on e sword, or do you have a Greek NT at home? 
 I like your mom's prayer Joel. It seems to have touched the conscience of a small boy. I'd say it made a difference to you.
   Dave, I thought about Paul's prayer for the Jews. I don't always know how to categorize them. I keep seeing them on that gulf with the 'rich man' and being 'tortured' because they ignored Jesus and the prophets. That's pretty worldy I think . Surely they are some of the lost Jesus came to save.
   Don't you all imagine that Jesus spoke to his Father about everything in his day? The woman at the well, the centurion with great faith, everything and everyone that came his way. Now that's a picture isn't it?  To have the son of God speaking to God about you- and all you are is a Samaritan woman  with a shady past and present. Wow. Anyway, that's prayer for all- the Jews, the lost, the sinners, the Gentiles. Everything.

Dave in Tenn:
From Ray's paper on Prayer:

SEVEN SCRIPTURAL PRINCIPLES GOVERNING PRAYER

[1] "And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, [everything in heaven and earth must be in accord with God’s will {His purpose and plan, Eph. 1:11} or it won’t happen] He hears us: And if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him" (I John 5:14-15).

[2] "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [I cannot stress enough the importance of a clean and clear conscience] then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we…

[3] keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight…

[4] And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the Name [and everything that that Name stands for and represents] of His Son Jesus Christ…

[5] And love one another, as He gave us commandment" (I John 3:21-23).

[6] "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts [so don’t think that it’s okay to pray for your Mother to hit the Lotto Jackpot either, as I believe that God can see through such feigned benevolence]" (James 4:3).

[7] "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing [Having faith and trust, not just hoping and wishing. True faith can be based only on God’s Word—see James 1:6-7] ye shall receive" (Matt. 21:22).

All seven of these principles are in keeping with "Thy will be done."...

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Prayer must be in accord with what "must be." Here are a couple of Versions that bring this out clearly:

"And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us , we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable" (Rom. 8:26, Young’s Literal Translation.)

The word "behoove" means "necessary." Not what should or might be, but what is absolutely "necessary." And "necessary" is the first definition of this word in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.

"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings" (Rom. 8:26, Concordant Literal New Testament.)

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This Scripture will blow you away if you have never before seen it properly translated. Here it is first in the King James Version:

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:24-26).

Paul makes a connection between "hope" and "prayer." Hope is something we expect, but do not as yet experience. All of Christendom has this subject wrong when they claim that they are already in this life "saved" in the past tense. Paul tells us that we are "saved by hope," but if it is already a reality, then there is no need to still be hoping for it. He then states that, "Likewise…" (in the same way and manner) when it comes to praying, "we know NOT what we should pray for." Just as we do not yet SEE what it is that we "hope for" (we do not yet possess it,) likewise we do not see what we are to "pray for" based on another one of God’s rules, not based on our ignorance (or ‘as we ought’.) This much we can learn from the King James.

My question.  Is Paul disobeying this verse (which he wrote) by praying for the salvation of the Jews?  Or is it because he knows the will of God is to save the Jews that he can pray without "infirmity"?  Or maybe it's something else I'm not considering?

I'll readily admit to a world of things I "know not" what "must be".  I need the Spirit to help in my infirmity, including if not especially this ignorance.  The only way I have any inkling of what must be in this humongous list--on this day--is when I've seen what "must have been" in a new "day".  But there are other things I do know what "must be".  I don't know WHEN they "must be".  I don't really know HOW they "must be" but unless my hope in His promise is completely in vain, I know that eventually they "must be".

If he has predestined it, it "must be".  Can I, with the measure of faith given to me, pray for what must be and be submissive to God concerning the aspects of what "must be" that I can't see, like when and how?         

   

Joel:
There is a lot that could be said about hoping against hope, Romans 4:18, and knowing that God can have mercy upon anyone he chooses.
David knew that God's judgements are often very merciful, I think that is what he was hoping for as he prayed for his son that eventually died. 2 Samuel 12:22
Paul knew what God had in store for the Jews, but he must have also hoped that he could have a part in saving the few that were being saved at that time, as God had seen fit to do with him.

Joel

John from Kentucky:
One thing about this matter of Paul praying for the Jews.

Paul understood that physical Jews are not any more important than other people.

The true Jews are those of the Spirit.

The Seed of Abraham was not Isaac but Jesus.  It was in Jesus that the world was to be blessed.  If you are a spiritual descendant of Jesus, then you are a spiritual Jew, one of the Elect.  Read the Book of Galatians.

The physical is unimportant.  The few spiritual Jews are whom Jesus is concerned with at this time, in this age.  In the future, it is the Elect who will assist Jesus in the salvation of the Many.

Colin:


Hello everybody

Quote from John from Kentucky     Re: Giving thanks for all things?    « Reply #33 on: 26th August 2016 at 04:27:35 PM » One thing about this matter of Paul praying for the Jews.   Paul understood that physical Jews are not any more important than other people.    [end of quote]

Let us not be too dismissive when it comes to the Jews.  While they may not be, as you say, “any more important than other people”, nevertheless, Paul does not disparage them as you seem to be doing. 
   
Rom 3:1  What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2   Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.   
 
In his same epistle, the way I understand it, Paul clearly shows that the Jews are in his thoughts and that through their “casting away”, they will play a pivotal role in regard to the rest of the world.  He did not disdain them, as far as I can see..  How do you read it, John?

Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Quote from JFK:   The true Jews are those of the Spirit.     The Seed of Abraham was not Isaac but Jesus.  It was in Jesus that the world was to be blessed.  If you are a spiritual descendant of Jesus, then you are a spiritual Jew, one of the Elect.  Read the Book of Galatians.
The physical is unimportant.  The few spiritual Jews are whom Jesus is concerned with at this time, in this age.  In the future, it is the Elect who will assist Jesus in the salvation of the many.    [end of quote]

The apostle Paul had more to say about those who did not believe (in Romans 3) and finished by asking, “Are we any better” in verse 9, answering with a resounding “NO”.

Rom 3:9  What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Describing a future time, Isaiah writes of the outcome of God’s dealings with specified peoples; we read that they all will be “healed” and “blessed”…..physical Israel no exception.

Isa 19:19  In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
Isa 19:20  And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isa 19:21  And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
Isa 19:22  And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be entreated of them, and shall heal them.
Isa 19:23  In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isa 19:24  In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25  Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

I readily agree with you John that “circumcision of the heart” defines a “spiritual Jew”.   

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is a lot more to this subject than meets the eye, however.  It takes some “digging” to unearth more important truths, as Ray encouraged us to do.     Being encouraged to read Galatians, I did just that (again), focusing on…...

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Where is this quoted from?     It is from Genesis 21.

Gen 21:9  And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10  Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11  And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Gen 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed [ Hebrew zer`a]  be called.

That is an unusual word….zara`.  It seems to be the reason why Paul went on to point out the differences between singular and plural, because this Hebrew word can be either, like our English word “sheep”.   We can say “one sheep” or “two (or more) sheep”.   Same goes for “fish”.

The Companion Bible (Bullinger) provides some clarifying information for Gen.21:12   viz:  Here zer`a  is in the singular sense, because of the word “Isaac” and because of the singular verb “it shall be called’.  Zer`a  is a “collective noun”, like the English word “sheep” and the context must determine whether it is singular or plural.    It is to this verse that Galatians 3:16 refers; not to Genesis 12:7 where it is indefinite; nor Genesis 17:7 where the verb and pronouns show it is plural.

Gen 21:13  And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [Ishmael]  is thy seed [same Hebrew word  zara`].   

This is quoted in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:    ( Quoted from Genesis 21:12)

There are other places where this Hebrew word zera` is to be understood in the plural…..viz
Gen 17:5  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed  [ collective Hebrew noun zer`a ]  after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This is plain from seeing the pronoun “their”, which indicates the “seed” is more than “one”.

Gen 17:8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Thanks to your post, John, after doing some “digging”, I am now better informed and hope I have assisted readers of the forum.

Returning to the original topic of “giving thanks”, I had the following thoughts, that there is a way which is NOT recommended to give thanks.   It is presented as a parable.

Luke 18:9  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.    Luke 18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.      Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.     

Being a parable, as Ray often told us, we are to “look behind” the literal and see what it is telling us on a spiritual level.     Essentially, it has to do with our inner thoughts and level of humility.   We, as “potential elect” are not to “look down on others” whom we might consider of lesser importance in God’s overall plan.   Even unbelieving Jews, who are all to participate one way or another in God’s plan for the salvation of every human being.    Colin

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