Clean Meat and Unclean Meat

[Colin]

Hello Dave

Dave, I started my post initially with ideas running around in my head when I saw the word "abomination" was coupled with those unclean meats which were proscribed by God.   That set me thinking that anything that God labels as an abomination ought to be carefully considered and avoided, if we have the mind of Christ.

Had the topic been, say, "what is abomination in God's eyes", then we all could find several scriptures which show us what God terms an abomination, as far as He is concerned.

I did a "word search" and discovered, surprisingly, that several Hebrews words are all translated into English as "abomination".  They have, however, different shades of meaning and apply in different areas. 

There are many things (apart from unclean meats), which God says are "abominable" or abhorrent to Him.....many are listed in Proverbs.  Some with the meaning of "morally disgusting", (Prov 6:16); being distorted in thinking (Prov 11:20); those who lie (Prov 12:22) even sacrifices of the wicked (Prov 15: and those who cheat others (Prov 20:10, 23).   

Then there others which are more properly described/translated as "filth".....which can be applied physically, as well as spiritually in relation to idolatry.   Daniel 11:31  e.g.   This the Hebrew word used repeatedly in Leviticus 11.

I try to be careful in how I approach posting on the forum, choosing my words so as to avoid any semblance of giving offence.     One of the areas which God says He finds abhorrent is found among those six listed in Proverbs 6.   

I began my very first posts on the forum with encouragement for all of us to show kindness towards one another and am bewildered to see, from some, thinly veiled hostility.   
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord [strife]  among brethren.   
I value the forum for the opportunity it provides to uplift each other and express how we see things and to contemplate whatever others have to offer.    Sure there will be varying levels of understanding – as to be expected – but we are not here to "tear each other apart".   

Not wishing to be too "bookish", I did put forward the idea of abomination and its usage to describe unclean meats.   Not a single person took up that line of thought.    I wondered why and decided I had not high-lighted it enough.    Sadly, some went off on a tangent and directed their comments and used scriptural references as if the discussion was about vegetarianism....ie, not eating ANY meats whatsoever.

I tried to make it clear that I did not think that by avoiding eating unclean meats, then that would make anybody "righteous", any more than by eating the clean meats would do so.   But, in my mind, I kept coming back to that idea of "abomination".   

More importantly, I saw that the set of statutes given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were a "whole package", and as I understand it, as a "love gift" from our Creator to save us from suffering from diseases.   I still see it as a "package" and cannot see why any laws relating to sanitation could be seen as unnecessary.....and "done away".     The close connection seemed to go unnoticed.

When it is all "boiled down", whatever anybody else chooses to eat is no business of mine....   

For those interested, the Hebrew word translated "abomination" as used to describe unclean meats means "filth" – either literally and/or figuratively.   

The idea that Jesus is the end of the law was mentioned repeatedly by Alex - with the intention to have people believe that Jesus "ended" the law.  Ray made this very clear where he explained that by turning the phrase around - the GOAL....or the "end" of the Law is to become as Jesus is.     Jesus is the GOAL of the law.....not the executioner of it.

By turning to (many translations of) Ephesians and saying the phrase "commandments contained in ordinances" is identical to what we read in Colossians 2 is still "apples and oranges".    To clarify that, I asked the question about "enmity" but it fell on deaf ears.

I have no desire to "cross swords" and do not view the forum as a chance to conduct a "bar-room brawl".   Putting down others was one of the "tools of the Pharisees".   I wish to avoid any semblance of "locking horns".

I shall contact a few people via PM (now that I feel I am familiar enough to use that avenue) so that I might clarify how I understand certain vital points.   That way the forum will not become a "show-piece" of how NOT to communicate using conduct, which God says He finds offensive.      Colin

[indianabob]

Certain animals are naturally clean due to physical structure and habits based upon the way God designed them.
"Ruminants" have compartmented stomachs that purify what they eat by eliminating pathogenic items that are dangerous to humans.
This is more important in underdeveloped areas of the world that don't practice full cooking of all of their food before consumption or where it is eaten raw.
See below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

[Dave in Tenn]

Colin, I can understand as threads go in all directions sometimes and not all comments are addressed--especially when they are long. 

YES, I'm glad you see at least some of the distinction between what is ABOMINABLE to God and what He said He would make abominable to the Jews.  No genuine lover of Jesus Christ is going to continue to do things or have such an attitude in ways that He judges/finds "abominable" to HIM--and I CONDEMN MYSELF with those words. 

If the thought of eating "un-clean meats" is abominable to you, then the law did it's thing.  I go to the first chapters of Romans for what happens next. 

There is a LOT about what 'we' commonly refer to as "the Law" that goes WAY beyond "Thou shalt not.".  I posted those 8 verses about the Sabbath as Ray taught this was how Christ fulfilled the Law.  Nobody commented on that, either.  The apostles confirmed this...the Sabbath is Spiritual.  If we make it again physical, we break the Spiritual law.  Even if you don't take what he said in the vision in Acts as a fulfillment of the Law (I do), there are other places similar to the Sabbath lesson where Jesus not only allowed, but TOLD his followers to break the letter of the Law.  Reference the account of the man who wanted to bury his father.  Break the commandment "honor thy father and mother" and come with Me.  It would take a scribe or a pharisee to explain that away, as far as I'm concerned.  And these are the TEN COMMANDMENTS written in stone by the Hand of God, not 600+ regulations given to the Jews.  Surely the letter written at the conference and agreed to by ALL "ended" the requirement of the Gentiles to "keep" every one of the 600+ ordinances.  That was the whole point of the conference, to decide this matter. 

I personally don't think the Law is "ended".  Apparently neither has all the enmity.     Nor has one jot or tiddle been removed for those who don't know or believe that Christ has fulfilled it.  And if any are in Him, by faith, it is fulfilled.  The law is good, if used lawfully.  The law serves a purpose, as Paul expounded in Romans.  As long as there are the unrighteous, the law is for them.

Sorry for not quoting chapter and verse.  There's just too many.  Besides, I'm afraid it will do no good for any who love the Law more than the Lord of the Law.  I remember Ray's writing about the protesters in Alabama (if I recall right) who, when protesting the removal of a plaque containing the Ten Commandments, cried , "You're taking away our God.".  Surely I'm not talking about anybody in this thread. 

Having them "written in your heart" doesn't mean "memorizing them", no matter what pastor said.  The Letter kills, the Spirit gives life. 

Jesus told Peter to Kill and eat.  Jesus loved Peter.  You can't physically eat "vision food".  But you can Spiritually eat it, and Peter did when he received the three Gentiles--unlawfully.  That made us one--brothers.  I won't offer you physical meat that is abominable to you.  That would hardly be love.  In return, please don't invent un-scriptural stories about why it should be abominable to me or add to me burdens that even your Jewish fathers couldn't bear.  No fricasee of rat for you.  For me?  Wisdom?  Sound advice?  Hopefully, I'm up for it.  Un-scriptural justifications and burdens?  No thanks.  I'm full.         

[cheekie3]

Colin -

Your Post is very thoughtful and very well presented (as have your other Posts on this Topic):

Hello Dave

Dave, I started my post initially with ideas running around in my head when I saw the word "abomination" was coupled with those unclean meats which were proscribed by God.   That set me thinking that anything that God labels as an abomination ought to be carefully considered and avoided, if we have the mind of Christ.

Had the topic been, say, "what is abomination in God's eyes", then we all could find several scriptures which show us what God terms an abomination, as far as He is concerned.

I did a "word search" and discovered, surprisingly, that several Hebrews words are all translated into English as "abomination".  They have, however, different shades of meaning and apply in different areas. 

There are many things (apart from unclean meats), which God says are "abominable" or abhorrent to Him.....many are listed in Proverbs.  Some with the meaning of "morally disgusting", (Prov 6:16); being distorted in thinking (Prov 11:20); those who lie (Prov 12:22) even sacrifices of the wicked (Prov 15: and those who cheat others (Prov 20:10, 23).   

Then there others which are more properly described/translated as "filth".....which can be applied physically, as well as spiritually in relation to idolatry.   Daniel 11:31  e.g.   This the Hebrew word used repeatedly in Leviticus 11.

I try to be careful in how I approach posting on the forum, choosing my words so as to avoid any semblance of giving offence.     One of the areas which God says He finds abhorrent is found among those six listed in Proverbs 6.   

I began my very first posts on the forum with encouragement for all of us to show kindness towards one another and am bewildered to see, from some, thinly veiled hostility.   
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord [strife]  among brethren.   
I value the forum for the opportunity it provides to uplift each other and express how we see things and to contemplate whatever others have to offer.    Sure there will be varying levels of understanding – as to be expected – but we are not here to "tear each other apart".   

Not wishing to be too "bookish", I did put forward the idea of abomination and its usage to describe unclean meats.   Not a single person took up that line of thought.    I wondered why and decided I had not high-lighted it enough.    Sadly, some went off on a tangent and directed their comments and used scriptural references as if the discussion was about vegetarianism....ie, not eating ANY meats whatsoever.

I tried to make it clear that I did not think that by avoiding eating unclean meats, then that would make anybody "righteous", any more than by eating the clean meats would do so.   But, in my mind, I kept coming back to that idea of "abomination".   

More importantly, I saw that the set of statutes given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were a "whole package", and as I understand it, as a "love gift" from our Creator to save us from suffering from diseases.   I still see it as a "package" and cannot see why any laws relating to sanitation could be seen as unnecessary.....and "done away".     The close connection seemed to go unnoticed.

When it is all "boiled down", whatever anybody else chooses to eat is no business of mine....   

For those interested, the Hebrew word translated "abomination" as used to describe unclean meats means "filth" – either literally and/or figuratively.   

The idea that Jesus is the end of the law was mentioned repeatedly by Alex - with the intention to have people believe that Jesus "ended" the law.  Ray made this very clear where he explained that by turning the phrase around - the GOAL....or the "end" of the Law is to become as Jesus is.     Jesus is the GOAL of the law.....not the executioner of it.

By turning to (many translations of) Ephesians and saying the phrase "commandments contained in ordinances" is identical to what we read in Colossians 2 is still "apples and oranges".    To clarify that, I asked the question about "enmity" but it fell on deaf ears.

I have no desire to "cross swords" and do not view the forum as a chance to conduct a "bar-room brawl".   Putting down others was one of the "tools of the Pharisees".   I wish to avoid any semblance of "locking horns".

I shall contact a few people via PM (now that I feel I am familiar enough to use that avenue) so that I might clarify how I understand certain vital points.   That way the forum will not become a "show-piece" of how NOT to communicate using conduct, which God says He finds offensive.      Colin

The Law is most definitely not done away with as it was always spiritual - and Our Heavenly Father is Spirit - and we must Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth.

I know there is a Scripture that states that the law was made for the unrighteous and not the Righteous - which I do not understand - as if the Law still stands, and it has always been Spiritual - and we are to Obey His Commandments - and He has written His Laws in our hearts and minds - how does the law is for the unrighteous fit in? I mean how can a Righteous God write a law of unrighteousness? Perhaps, it means that it is meant for us, when we are still unrighteous, so that we learn that we need to be Righteous in His Eyes - then when He drags us Out back to Himself, He enables us to Obey His Royal Perfect Law of Liberty in Righteousness.

I welcome a PM from you to discuss this further.

Thank you for your Posts, as I have found them Scripturally sound.

Kind Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

indianabob -

Thank you for Posting this:

Certain animals are naturally clean due to physical structure and habits based upon the way God designed them.
"Ruminants" have compartmented stomachs that purify what they eat by eliminating pathogenic items that are dangerous to humans.
This is more important in underdeveloped areas of the world that don't practice full cooking of all of their food before consumption or where it is eaten raw.
See below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis

Food for thought.

Kind Regards.

George