Clean Meat and Unclean Meat

[cheekie3]

All-

Does anyone know if Ray taught on what we can eat today, or can we eat anything, including beef and pork.

I know there were Clean and Unclean animals in The Old Testament - but as we are now in The New Testament, I would like to know if these Scriptures apply to us today.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George

[stello]

Roms 14:5-9
"Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."

Roms14:13-18
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval."

Stello

[lilitalienboi16]

Maybe a read through the thread on the law again might help. You are complete in Christ. He is the end of the law and our righteousness. Everything else was but a shadow pointing to Him. He nailed the hand writting ordinances to the cross that were contrary to us.

Colossians 2:10-15
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Enter into His rest George. Be still and know that He is God.

God bless,
Alex

[Flanagan]

Acts 10: 13-15. Acts 11:7-9 . Thanks for all the great comments

[Kat]

Here is Christ's own teaching on clean and unclean meat.

Mark 7:14  When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
v. 15  There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
v. 16  If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
v. 17  When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
v. 18  So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
v. 19  because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"
v. 20  And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.

Luke 10:8  And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.

Everything in the law (including foods) were fulfilled in Christ. Here is what Paul said.

1Cor 10:27  If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

When Peter was still clinging to the old covenant laws of eating only clean animals, he was told in a vision that he could eat any animal for food on the whole earth.

Acts 10:9  The next day, as they were on their way and coming near Joppa, Peter went up on the roof of the house about noon in order to pray.
v. 10  He became hungry and wanted something to eat; while the food was being prepared, he had a vision.
v. 11  He saw heaven opened and something coming down that looked like a large sheet being lowered by its four corners to the earth.
v. 12  In it were all kinds of animals, reptiles, and wild birds.
v. 13  A voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat!"
v. 14  But Peter said, "Certainly not, Lord! I have never eaten anything ritually unclean or defiled."
v. 15  The voice spoke to him again, "Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean." (GNB)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll only add this:  The Lord didn't specifically tell Peter that he could eat any any animal for food on the whole earth.  He said, "Arise, Peter.  Kill and eat."  Then once again he argued with the Lord in his own righteousness--just as he did when the Lord told him he would deny Him.

Kinda makes you wonder why the Lord gave the keys to the Kingdom to this guy.     Or maybe not.   

[octoberose]

Dave, that was hilarious. 

Just to bring up one thing to make this a little muddy,  Acts 19 says in talking about the Gentiles-

20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

but then later Paul says to not worry about food from idols. My paraphrase version is if  it's not sin to you, then it's not sin.
So, I don't know what to think of the blood issue and I know this has to do with pagan worship.

Funny, I know Christians who are vegetarians because they think that's what Adam and Eve ate, and I know Christians that eat everything from the  land and animals because it's biblical.  So, I eat whatever I think is good for me that man hasn't  polluted. 

[John from Kentucky]

for the  Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:17

[Kat]

Dave, that was hilarious. 

Just to bring up one thing to make this a little muddy,  Acts 19 says in talking about the Gentiles-

20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

but then later Paul says to not worry about food from idols. My paraphrase version is if  it's not sin to you, then it's not sin.
So, I don't know what to think of the blood issue and I know this has to do with pagan worship.

Funny, I know Christians who are vegetarians because they think that's what Adam and Eve ate, and I know Christians that eat everything from the  land and animals because it's biblical.  So, I eat whatever I think is good for me that man hasn't  polluted. 

Acts 15:5  But some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and told to obey the Law of Moses."

Acts 15:19  "It is my opinion," James went on, "that we should not trouble the Gentiles who are turning to God.
v. 20  Instead, we should write a letter telling them not to eat any food that is ritually unclean because it has been offered to idols; to keep themselves from sexual immorality; and not to eat any animal that has been strangled, or any blood.

You know when you think about it, these Jews were bringing in Gentile converts, and there was a very big difference in how they observed rituals and things. Gentiles commonly drank blood in their ceremonies, where as Jews were very strict in not doing so (Gen 9:4), it was quite repugnant to them... so the strangling was keeping the blood in the animals, not properly blood out as the Jews would.

So I believe what was said in that verse was an attempt to try to bring the two groups of believers together, so at first to deal with their differences in the most harmonious way they could.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[octoberose]

Works for me, Kat !

[Colin]

Hello Everybody

We first come across the "clean and unclean" division in Genesis 7, where Noah was directed to make a difference between the number of which animals that were to go on board the ark.   Noah knew how to differentiate.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.   

Later, comprehensive instructions in Leviticus 11 were given by God to delineate what creatures were suitable for eating.   God went into detail - it was not just a "throw-away" line here and there.  We too easily overlook the word "abomination" ...... 

Lev 11:10  And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Lev 11:11  They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
In Leviticus 11, we read the word "abomination" 8 times!    I think we need to keep that well and truly in mind and ask ourselves why God would have used that term.     

As we read through Leviticus, we can recognise that God is addressing matters which bear upon the health and well-being of human beings which He has designed - to avoid illnesses, the spread of disease.

How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup?   Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them.   Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease.    They remain, in the world's eyes, a "delicacy".    Should we "enjoy the world's standards" and promote them?

A health inspector I once knew, told us that he always wore gloves when called upon to examine the insides of the carcase of pigs, as in almost every case, he would find lesions/cancerous growths and did not wish to be contaminated by them.   Many animals, such as the pig, rabbit eat their own faeces.......that alone should alert us to their questionable food value, despite their
"tastiness".

Lev 11:26  The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not cloven-footed, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.   

God was giving the people a lesson in hygiene, because He loved them (and loves us) and wishes for us to avoid illnesses.

Lev 11:32  And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.

What's that a lesson about?  Cleanliness – we use cleaned utensils to cook in today, clean plates to eat off - don't we?
Lev 11:33  And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
Lev 11:34  Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.

We avoid contaminated water today.....something that God warned about a long time ago.

Lev 11:35  And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:36  Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.

Lev 11:37  And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
Lev 11:38  But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:39  And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:40  And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.   

The whole topic is "staying healthy".   It certainly is part of the "law of Moses", as some would categorise it.....but does it make sense to abrogate ANY of these "health laws"?

In a figurative sense we too are being "brought out of Egypt (Babylon)" and the same principles apply.
Lev 11:45  For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lev 11:46  This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47  To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

God, next in Leviticus 13, deals with skin complaints and the theme of quarantine of those with contagious diseases.   It is instruction which, again, comes from a loving God for our health benefits.    Do we rescind those laws/statutes, simply because they are from the "old Covenant"?    Ask your local hospital staff!

Lev 13:1 - 59   And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying......
Next, we find another topic relating to health matters....namely that of mould, which can cause serious and life-threatening problems.
Lev 14:34  When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 14:35  And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
Lev 14:43  And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
Lev 14:44  Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
Lev 18:4  Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

And the point of it all?     For the benefit of living well and not becoming ill, or worse.

Lev 18:5  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

What came next?    Rules regarding sex, incestuous relationships etc.   Should these be "scrapped" because they are part of the "law of Moses"?

Lev 18:6  None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7  The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8  The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 

Would the apostles have ever had in mind to suggest that these "laws of Moses" be abandoned when they sent Judas and Silas to the Gentiles?  I don't think so.     I think the same applies to eating "unclean meats".

The matter of what to eat and to avoid eating is repeated (as a second witness) in Deuteronomy 14.    Again, we find that word "abominable".
Deut 14:3  Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
Deut 14:21  Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Were they then, really "a holy people"?    Not really - but they were intended to be - and to be a "type" for us, as Paul wrote.

In the future we read that there will be lessons again taught when it comes to separating the clean from the unclean. 
Eze 44:15  But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
Eze 44:23  And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

The case of Peter's vision has been raised:
Act 11:5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Act 11:6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Did Peter immediately go to the meat vendor and order a Camel burger?   No - he rather understand the intent of the vision.     

Act 11:17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

When we come to the account where Jesus spoke of "being defiled" - not by what we eat, it is easy to misuse this and to think "anything may be eaten with God's blessing".   What is the core of what Jesus said to the Pharisees? 

Mar 7:5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6  He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Jesus "looked within".......past their "outward appearance of supposed righteousness" and put His finger on what defiles....

Mar 7:14  And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

If we come to the conclusion that all He was saying is, "we can eat whatever we like".....we have missed the boat.
Mar 7:17  And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

Well, fancy that....ANOTHER parable.  And as Ray warned us, don't take parables literally, if you want to "see behind it".

Mar 7:18  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 

If we eat something which is not good for us physically, it will "come out" eventually!  Maybe immediately!  But our "rotten nature" is what we need to be more aware of and concerned about  - that is not so easy to be rid of!
Mar 7:20  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that [is what] defileth the man.
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

We find a parallel account in Mathew 15.

Mat 15:12  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?   

What a surprise  - the Pharisees were upset!    Why?   They looked to their dietary strictness "as a measure of their righteousness".  We could fall into the same trap, if by avoiding unclean meats, we feel exonerated....or self-righteous.   

Does that make it right to eat unclean meats?  No   - it doesn't....the "abomination" clause still applies, but if we think that by not eating pork or shellfish, that that makes us "undefiled" then we have missed the lesson of Jesus' parable.  Our diet can affect our physical health, but it does nothing to offset the "inner" things which really defile.

Jesus went on to say, "leave them alone, those who cannot see". 
Mat 15:13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. 
And then....Peter (like some of us) turned around and said "what does it all mean"? 
Mat 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

I have a suspicion that Peter was the one to whom that vision was given in such a way, that Peter would have the lesson "driven home".     
Colin

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Everybody

We first come across the "clean and unclean" division in Genesis 7, where Noah was directed to make a difference between the number of which animals that were to go on board the ark.   Noah knew how to differentiate.

Gen 7:1  And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.   

Later, comprehensive instructions in Leviticus 11 were given by God to delineate what creatures were suitable for eating.   God went into detail - it was not just a "throw-away" line here and there.  We too easily overlook the word "abomination" ...... 

Lev 11:10  And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Lev 11:11  They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
In Leviticus 11, we read the word "abomination" 8 times!    I think we need to keep that well and truly in mind and ask ourselves why God would have used that term.     

As we read through Leviticus, we can recognise that God is addressing matters which bear upon the health and well-being of human beings which He has designed - to avoid illnesses, the spread of disease.

How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup?   Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them.   Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease.    They remain, in the world's eyes, a "delicacy".    Should we "enjoy the world's standards" and promote them?

A health inspector I once knew, told us that he always wore gloves when called upon to examine the insides of the carcase of pigs, as in almost every case, he would find lesions/cancerous growths and did not wish to be contaminated by them.   Many animals, such as the pig, rabbit eat their own faeces.......that alone should alert us to their questionable food value, despite their
"tastiness".

Lev 11:26  The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not cloven-footed, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.   

God was giving the people a lesson in hygiene, because He loved them (and loves us) and wishes for us to avoid illnesses.

Lev 11:32  And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.

What's that a lesson about?  Cleanliness – we use cleaned utensils to cook in today, clean plates to eat off - don't we?
Lev 11:33  And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
Lev 11:34  Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.

We avoid contaminated water today.....something that God warned about a long time ago.

Lev 11:35  And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:36  Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.

Lev 11:37  And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
Lev 11:38  But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:39  And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:40  And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.   

The whole topic is "staying healthy".   It certainly is part of the "law of Moses", as some would categorise it.....but does it make sense to abrogate ANY of these "health laws"?

In a figurative sense we too are being "brought out of Egypt (Babylon)" and the same principles apply.
Lev 11:45  For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lev 11:46  This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47  To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

God, next in Leviticus 13, deals with skin complaints and the theme of quarantine of those with contagious diseases.   It is instruction which, again, comes from a loving God for our health benefits.    Do we rescind those laws/statutes, simply because they are from the "old Covenant"?    Ask your local hospital staff!

Lev 13:1 - 59   And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying......
Next, we find another topic relating to health matters....namely that of mould, which can cause serious and life-threatening problems.
Lev 14:34  When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 14:35  And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
Lev 14:43  And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
Lev 14:44  Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
Lev 18:4  Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

And the point of it all?     For the benefit of living well and not becoming ill, or worse.

Lev 18:5  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

What came next?    Rules regarding sex, incestuous relationships etc.   Should these be "scrapped" because they are part of the "law of Moses"?

Lev 18:6  None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7  The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8  The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:26  Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) 

Would the apostles have ever had in mind to suggest that these "laws of Moses" be abandoned when they sent Judas and Silas to the Gentiles?  I don't think so.     I think the same applies to eating "unclean meats".

The matter of what to eat and to avoid eating is repeated (as a second witness) in Deuteronomy 14.    Again, we find that word "abominable".
Deut 14:3  Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
Deut 14:21  Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Were they then, really "a holy people"?    Not really - but they were intended to be - and to be a "type" for us, as Paul wrote.

In the future we read that there will be lessons again taught when it comes to separating the clean from the unclean. 
Eze 44:15  But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
Eze 44:23  And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.

The case of Peter's vision has been raised:
Act 11:5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Act 11:6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Did Peter immediately go to the meat vendor and order a Camel burger?   No - he rather understand the intent of the vision.     

Act 11:17  Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

When we come to the account where Jesus spoke of "being defiled" - not by what we eat, it is easy to misuse this and to think "anything may be eaten with God's blessing".   What is the core of what Jesus said to the Pharisees? 

Mar 7:5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6  He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Jesus "looked within".......past their "outward appearance of supposed righteousness" and put His finger on what defiles....

Mar 7:14  And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

If we come to the conclusion that all He was saying is, "we can eat whatever we like".....we have missed the boat.
Mar 7:17  And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

Well, fancy that....ANOTHER parable.  And as Ray warned us, don't take parables literally, if you want to "see behind it".

Mar 7:18  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 

If we eat something which is not good for us physically, it will "come out" eventually!  Maybe immediately!  But our "rotten nature" is what we need to be more aware of and concerned about  - that is not so easy to be rid of!
Mar 7:20  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that [is what] defileth the man.
Mar 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

We find a parallel account in Mathew 15.

Mat 15:12  Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?   

What a surprise  - the Pharisees were upset!    Why?   They looked to their dietary strictness "as a measure of their righteousness".  We could fall into the same trap, if by avoiding unclean meats, we feel exonerated....or self-righteous.   

Does that make it right to eat unclean meats?  No   - it doesn't....the "abomination" clause still applies, but if we think that by not eating pork or shellfish, that that makes us "undefiled" then we have missed the lesson of Jesus' parable.  Our diet can affect our physical health, but it does nothing to offset the "inner" things which really defile.

Jesus went on to say, "leave them alone, those who cannot see". 
Mat 15:13  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. 
And then....Peter (like some of us) turned around and said "what does it all mean"? 
Mat 15:15  Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

I have a suspicion that Peter was the one to whom that vision was given in such a way, that Peter would have the lesson "driven home".     
Colin

Colin, just to clarify, are you saying people would be wise to abide by the levitical laws?

You said,

"How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup?   Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them.   Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease.    They remain, in the world's eyes, a "delicacy".    Should we "enjoy the world's standards" and promote them? "

Oysters cause problems because they are not COOKED. When you COOK food, it destroys 99.9% of the possible pathogens. Your bodies acidic stomach, ph of 2, does the rest. This too, God made. Most get sick because they either don't cook or eat under cooked meals. There are rare exceptions but I will leave them as exceptions because in that case it has nothing to do with the animal species itself.

Since I'm not certain entirely what you are trying to say, I will re-iterate that Jesus nailed the handwriting ordinances--which was those things not written on stone tablets, these Leviticus laws--To the cross. That's scripture. So these laws were abrogated by Jesus who fulfilled the law. So I don't see how the abomination claw still applies.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 14 which was already shared by stello and john above makes a good point on this subject. Jesus too by stating that it isn't what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out. In other words, don't worry about those levitical laws as trying to keep them is nothing but filthy rags.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

God bless,
Alex

[octoberose]

Colin, it can't mean that we are confined to the old testament dietary rules. The law was for a certain people at a certain time and we are not bound by it. We have a higher 'law' written on our hearts. Do you also obey the sabbath rules? What is the difference?  I'll be out of my depth here in a minute so this will be short.
I know some men who are adamant about circumcision - both for and against. We are Not bound to do it but there are some very sound medical reasons to have it done. But we are not Jews before the death of Christ and we can do as we please. Again, what is the difference? And did you know when a woman has her period, she is unclean for seven days  according to the Law- not only that but you cannot even Touch her? For 7 days. I guess I could find out from the Hebrew what 'touched' meant in this context but I think it was just plain touching. I don't know about you, but my husband would touch me. No impurity there.
I do know that pigs and shellfish are scavengers and some stay away from eating them for that reason. That is a biological reason, a dietary reason, but not a spiritual one- at least not one that God has bound on you. So eat, or don't eat. You are free to do either and not bind your choices on anyone. You can share them- give someone something to think about- but you cannot bind them.

[Dave in Tenn]

Anybody have eyes and ears?

Mat 12:1  At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2  But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3  But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4  How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5  Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6  But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7  But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

I see Matthew 12:8 as a spiritual match to  Acts 10:15  The voice spoke to him again, "Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean.", and the passages they come from are quite similar as well, with Peter playing the role of the Pharisees. 

While it's true that the vision in Acts 10 down to the number of times it "played out" refers to the visitors soon to be at the door, it's not wise to stop reading there either.  There were consequences to the acceptance of these Gentiles, as Peter also mentioned that it was unlawful for him to receive them.  Yet he did because the Lord of the Law showed him to do it.  Some may imagine Peter quaking in his boots at this.  I have a different opinion of just how glad he was to "disobey the law" and obey the Lord.

Further, there were consequences of the overall acceptance of the Gentiles and the "crises" it brought about among the Apostles and elders.  Much of Paul's writing directly bears on these things.  Ray taught quite a bit about this conference and it's effect.  You can't just stop reading (not even in Leviticus) when digging for the greater truth. 

As Ray taught, it's fine to study the law, but if we do so with the intention of trying to physically keep it, we are missing the point.  I'd rather eat a platter-full of meats that are abominable to me than miss out on higher obedience.

[Dave in Tenn]

All-

Does anyone know if Ray taught on what we can eat today, or can we eat anything, including beef and pork.

I know there were Clean and Unclean animals in The Old Testament - but as we are now in The New Testament, I would like to know if these Scriptures apply to us today.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George

George, yes Ray taught a little on this.  I apologize that nobody so far (including me) has either been able to locate such places or has done so yet.

[Rhys 🕊]

Here is an email from Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1186.msg10634.html#msg10634

I'm a little mixed up on a certain topic. What does the bible say about eating meat?
Does God want us to kill and eat animals? Thank you for taking the time to read this
email and hopefully responding.

                                                                  Sincerely,
                                                                  Matt

Dear Matt:
Eating meat is fine.  Why even the Passover Lamb was eaten, as were other sacrifices of animals. Herding was a major profession among God's people, Israel. In the Prodigal the father killed the fatted calf, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray

[Doug]

I get it that eating the "unclean meats" is not a sin. However, I still feel like they are disgusting meats to eat and not healthy. Maybe it was too many years in the Worldwide Church of God.

[AwesomeSavior]

George:

I personally cannot eat pork because of preexisting health conditions, so a lot of it comes down to my own physical health status. The Lord causes me to pray each day that all our food goes through our systems safely. He is Faithful and True!

Dean

[indianabob]

Hi Doug,
I have the same problem. Regarding pork and shell fish. I do like a cool beer however.
We used to substitute veggie bacon bits for the real thing but even those taste spoiled or stale now. When we go to Ponderosa for the senior salad bar they put bacon grease in the green beans to enhance the flavor, a benefit which for me is entirely unnecessary. I love green beans with just a little salt, but now I have to eat broccoli instead.
I-bob

I get it that eating the "unclean meats" is not a sin. However, I still feel like they are disgusting meats to eat and not healthy. Maybe it was too many years in the Worldwide Church of God.

[Colin]

Hello Alex

Quote : Since I'm not certain entirely what you are trying to say, I will re-iterate that Jesus nailed the handwriting of ordinances--which were those things not written on stone tablets, these Leviticus laws--To the cross. That's scripture. So these laws were abrogated by Jesus who fulfilled the law.    So I don't see how the abomination clause still applies.   [end of quote]   

Hi Alex, the reason why you are unable to see how the term abomination is still applicable is due to reading Colossians 2:14 incorrectly.     If you have E-Sword, as I do, you will find the following

Col 2:14  Blotting outG1813 theG3588 handwritingG5498 of ordinancesG1378 that was againstG2596 us,G2257 whichG3739 wasG2258 contraryG5227 to us,G2254 andG2532 tookG142 itG846 out ofG1537 theG3588 way,G3319 nailingG4338 itG846 to his cross;G4716

The Greek word cheirographon is translated "handwriting" and we are given this information:
G5498 Χειρόγραφον    cheirographon    Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): -  handwriting.

The Greek word dogma is translated "ordinances" and we are given this information :
G1378 Δόγμα  dogma    From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

In olden times, it was the custom to have a list of infractions, committed by felons, nailed up publicly to declare, to one and all, what a convicted person was guilty of.    It does not take too much effort for us to see how this example has been used to demonstrate how Christ "blotted out" our sins and that He did so by dying for us, as a sin offering, on the cross.

G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleiphō    From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.   

Jesus said that He came neither to "destroy", pull down, nor obliterate the law – nor the prophets.  Whereas He did come to "take away our sins".....smear out, or wipe away the list of our sins.    Once you see that difference, Alex, things will "clear up".  Ray spoke of this in several of his papers.

The misuse of Colossians 2:14 has led many into confusion.    Christ said that not one jot or tittle of the law will "disappear" until ALL be fulfilled.    We are to obey those same laws, which Jesus gave to Moses, but, as we now better comprehend from the Sermon on the Mount, they are to be kept "in the spirit".   

When it comes to the laws of hygiene, cleanliness, it becomes a little harder perhaps to see how to observe them without doing so literally, such as abstaining from unhygienic practices or declining to eat prohibited unclean meat.   

As I tried to clarify how I viewed this thread, I showed where Leviticus 11 was only a part of the section which covered healthy living, the avoidance of contagious diseases and perverted sexual practices, which are found mentioned in this same Old Testament book.  I proposed the idea that God (Jesus) gave those to Moses from a loving concern He had for the people He was dealing with. 

I cannot separate our benefiting from following those statutes by imagining we can avoid such problems if we ignore any of those statutes.     I am glad that a doctor or dentist "scrubs up" after he has dealt with a prior patient, before he pokes his finger in my mouth, for example.    Cleanliness is one of the points covered in Leviticus.

Have any heard or read about Ignaz Semmelweis?  He was a Hungarian doctor who was instrumental in saving many new mothers from dying from puerperal disease because he taught doctors to wash after they had done an autopsy and who then had proceeded immediately to assist at birthing.....a life-saving technique, straight from "Moses".     You can "Google" Semmelweis.....for an interesting read.

We, with a spiritual attitude, can approach those statutes from a different level of understanding and gratitude, by acknowledging that God (Jesus) instructed out of love and not as a "harsh kill-joy".     

Anything mentioned in scripture as an abomination remains in that category, I feel, until such time it is unquestionably turned into something "UNabominable".    Certain verse in the New Testament appear to do that, as some have indicated - but on closer inspection, that is not the case.  I will offer them in a separate post for discussion.

I, in no way, wish to be viewed as criticizing or being demeaning towards any who see things differently.  All I wanted to do was to contribute to the forum how I see things and leave it up to members/readers to be convinced/convicted one way or the other.   

As a medical-man-in-training, Alex, I take your point with regard to the effect of cooking to destroy (sometimes only partially) pathogens which are likely to lead to illness.  I have been involved in bacteriology during my working life and always kept the "little critters" at arm's length.   I would hesitate to say it dogmatically, but guess that most people do NOT cook their oysters.  It is a well-known fact that restaurateurs are keenly aware of the worrisome quick spoilage of sea-food and they are likely to "quickly hit the panic button" if they hear of food poisoning from anybody who has eaten seafood (prawns, crabs) at their establishment.   

When it comes to the statute given in Deuteronomy 23:13 of covering over human waste I am in full agreement.....how about you?   I can't see how we comply without literally doing it (these days most use flush toilets – it's the same principle however) – that certainly is something I would NOT argue needs "doing away with".  For many years, that was an underlying reason for plagues in large cities, where filth flowed in the streets.

I will not attempt in this posting to answer points raised by others who responded to my earlier post, but will try to do so, briefly, "next time".        Colin