substitutionary atonement

[indianabob]

Friends and moderators,

A friend has confronted me with the idea that although "Substitutionary Atonement" isn't supported by any particular Bible verses, the idea of Christ being our substitute for the punishment we have earned in our lives is a valid part of my friend's creed.
At first glance I disagree, but I'm not sure of my position.
Any advice or counsel would be appreciated.

Indiana-bob

[Dave in Tenn]

Here's a short email that may unravel things a bit.  I personally can't understand what "substitutionary atonement" actually IS or includes, but I did find this through search.  Pay attention to the ""quotation marks"".

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2517.msg19473.html#msg19473

Hi Ray,
    I understand that if Christ had not come to save and die for us, we would still suffer only the first death in the flesh that we suffer for our sins ,(Rom. 5:12) even though he died for us. We just wouldn't resurrect as we find in 1 Cor. 15:18 "Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost." So since Christ death does not save us from any death, his death was not substitutionary for us. Having said this, could you unravel one scripture that appears to contradict this? Rom. 5:7 "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die." This sounds like a substitution. Can you clarify?
    Mel
     

    Dear Mel:
    The Scriptures tell us that Jesus died FOR US; FOR ALL; FOR OUR SINS.  Nowhere does it state or suggest that He died as a "substitute," in our "place and stead," or any such terminology.  Rom. 5:7 does not suggest either that one is dying as a "substitude" for another, but rather "for their sake," or "for them."  Notice that Jesus died "FOR OUR SINS." I do not think that anyone would suggest that Jesus died "in place of our sins?"  He died FOR US.  And therefore we need to be careful even in stating that "Christ's death does not save us from ANY death..."  Technically, it is true that we are not saved BY His death, but rather BY His life, nonetheless, unless there had been a death preceeding the life, we would be finished.  His death and resurrection WILL ASSUREDLY SAVE US FROM DEATH, and it will save all of humanity from death, as death itself is to be totally absolished .
    God be with you,
    Ray


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[indianabob]

thank you Dave, very helpful.
I will pursue this information further.
I-bob