Who and what is Jesus?Who is His Father?

[Nelson Boils]

Good day all,

Ray said:"So I say that God is perfect, that's why He doesn't change now and Christ doesn't change. But did He ever? Because I have to answer a question. Where did God get patience?"

Comment: IF we say God was not always perfect,He learned,wouldn't it then mean that He was not the same yesterday as He is today?

Hebrews13:8 "Jesus, the Messiah, is the same yesterday and today—and forever!"

[lilitalienboi16]

That is perhaps a rather poor translation when one considers what the word 'Same' means in greek.

Heb 13:8  JesusG2424 ChristG5547 theG3588 sameG846 yesterday,G5504 andG2532 to day,G4594 andG2532 for ever.G1519 G165

autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.
Total KJV occurrences: 4813

In other words, it would be more accurate to say, "Jesus Christ HIMSELF yesterday, today, and forever." There is a constancy to God and who He is but that doesn't mean He NEVER changes.

Ray's understanding grew on this subject of God and the topic of change itself. You can see some of this in his later emails and even in his later writtings. He realized that God does change. Its just that God doesn't change in certain ways so that we sons of Jacob are not consumed.


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John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.

COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?

Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.

When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.

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Jesus, who is God, emptied Himself of His divinity, died, and rose again. That requires change.

God bless,
Alex

[Nelson Boils]

Thanks Alex.

Interesting how others wrote the verse.

CPDV Heb 13:7 - 8 "Remember your leaders, who have spoken the Word of God to you, whose faith you imitate, by observing the goal of their way of life:Jesus Christ, yesterday and today; Jesus Christ forever."

WPNT Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is Himself, yesterday and today and into the ages."

EBR Heb 13:8  "Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today, is the same,––and unto the ages."

JMNT Heb 13:8  "Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday and today and on into the ages, (or: Jesus [is and continues being] Christ [= the Messiah] – the Man Himself {or: the Very One}: yesterday as well as today, and even into the midst of the ages,)

[santgem]

Good day all,

Ray said:"So I say that God is perfect, that's why He doesn't change now and Christ doesn't change. But did He ever? Because I have to answer a question. Where did God get patience?"

Comment: IF we say God was not always perfect,He learned,wouldn't it then mean that He was not the same yesterday as He is today?

Hebrews13:8 "Jesus, the Messiah, is the same yesterday and today—and forever!"

Where did God get patience?"

Before or after He became a man?

[Dennis Vogel]

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Was Jesus disobedient as a human? No. He learned about good and evil before the creation. But we are not told everything.