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Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: largeli on September 23, 2016, 04:17:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 22, 2016, 04:43:01 PM ---Largeli, your response bothers me.
It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."
Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?
Hm. What strange dicsussion.
Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.
There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.
--- End quote ---
My response doesn't bother you... what you made of my response bothers you because I didn't say any of this stuff.
My statement you're responding to was...
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.
I never said Gandhi was racist. You did. I never said Jesus was racist.
--- End quote ---
Well Largeli, I certainly don't want to get into a big argument of what you thought or were trying to say. Kat is right with her post and we should not pursue this any further as I think it will be of little benefit.
In my defense of having assumed incorrectly, which you state I did, I will say that your lack of rejecting the notion that Ghandi was racist followed by what appeared to be a justification of racist behavior with a comment of our Lord made it very easy to miss understand you. But that too may be my fault for having attempted to understand more than what was essentially an ambiguous post.
For your question. Did Jesus call the woman a dog or was He stating a spiritual truth that what is holy should not be given to the dogs and swines lest they turn and rend you for it? I don't see Him necessarily saying she is a dog as she clearly proves shes not because Jesus shortly thereafter marvels at her tremendous faith and proclaims her daughter healed. The dogs do not possess such faith or they would be no dogs.
I think He provoked her because He knew how she would respond and thus revealing her tremendous faith in Him resulting in the healing of her daughter which was God's plan all along.
It reminds me of Exodus 32 where God tells Moses He's going to destroy Isreal so that Moses is provoked into prayer so that God doesn't destroy israel and 'changes His mind.' God's plan the whole time was not to destroy isreal but He planned for that to happen through Moses' intercession.
Similarly Jesus' knowing all mankind would certainly give Him the understanding that this woman is no dog but her faith is what was necessary for the healing of her daughter and so Jesus provoked that out of her.
That's what I see. I don't see Him calling her a dog.
Kindly,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Doug on September 23, 2016, 11:07:34 AM ---Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?
--- End quote ---
Doug, what I'd hoped to show in an earlier post is that persecute is a word, and not a "bible word". It's a word, and not a "topic". So short answer: No. To persecute or to be persecuted is "to pursue" with or without ill-will or intent to harm/harass. It's ALWAYS the reason BEHIND/FOR the "persecution" that matters. As Dennis posted above:
1Pe_3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
I've said numerous times when this "topic" appears: Any fool behaving badly can get himself "persecuted" if that's what he wants. Fools behaving badly are decidedly NOT "living Godly in Christ Jesus" no matter what they say with their mouths or think in their minds. "Persecution" is a result, not a "proof".
Doug:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.
For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.
cheekie3:
Doug -
--- Quote from: Doug on September 24, 2016, 10:37:49 AM ---Hi Dave,
Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.
For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.
--- End quote ---
I am pleased that you are no longer being persecuted by this work colleague.
In my experience, bullies tend to be cowards - and they usually cannot take what they themselves give out.
Kind Regards.
George
Kat:
--- Quote from: largeli on September 23, 2016, 04:17:43 PM ---
My statement you're responding to was...
Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.
Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.
--- End quote ---
Matt 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed."
v. 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
v. 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
v. 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
v. 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."
Isn't that curious to wonder why Jesus would make such a comment using the derogatory word 'dog.' Of course Christ was well aware of all the circumstances here, and with this woman in particular, a Gentile. I certainly believe this was to become a learning lesson... maybe it was time the disciples needed to began to comprehend that Gentiles are not the lowly beings all Jews had always considered them to be.
So Jesus hearing her plea for help, ignored her at first, and her. a Gentile, being there speaking to Him raised the disciples contempt for her and they began to tell Him "send her away." But then Jesus asked her a question and I do believe He knew exactly how this exchange would go. The word 'dog' was no doubt part of the lesson, because we certainly know that He would never use it as a put down, but maybe it was more in the form of a question to bring attention to it, as surely He had heard His disciples use it many times. So He told her that His mission at that time was to the house of Israel, the Jews, God's chosen people... she was not chosen, but they were considered no more then lowly Gentiles dogs, with no chance for salvation.
As the disciples listened on, she answered that she was not seeking the Jews portions, just a few leftover crumbs of mercy... she evidently believed Jesus was God and had faith that He could grant her request and she would not just give up easily. I'm sure Christ knew this about her and certainly He did honor her request as He already knew He would and to top it off He even acknowledged and commended her "great faith." I suppose the disciples were probably a little shocked by the the way this turned out.
Matt 15:27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
v. 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
I believe the disciples learned that Christ did not despise the Gentiles, that word 'dog' was used to show them how ugly their contempt was, because He did show mercy/love for her and healed her daughter. So that had to put a big question in their minds about how they looked down their noses at these people. Because we know that the Gentiles and all people were destined to be eventually chosen... Christ knew it was something the disciples needed time to wrap their minds around after centuries of scorn for these people.
Just my take on this interesting comment from Christ.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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