Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

[Dave in Tenn]

When you truly come out of this world and live your life as an example you will be persecuted. But it takes time to overcome and fully repent (IMO) to be worthy of persecution.

But there is hope.

1Pe_3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe_3:17  For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

That's pretty near the bottom line for me. 

Things have been "worse".  Things may get "worse" again.  They are "worse" for some than for others.  Some of those "others" are here among us.  These "things" are in the hands of God, and so are we.  Does anyone really think the aim of living is to get persecuted as much as possible?  If so, then he'll find a way.  And if it doesn't happen like he thinks it ought, then he can join the mind-set of this current "generation" and take every slight as "persecution".

Mat 11:16-19  But what comparison may I make of this generation? It is like children seated in the market-places, crying out to one another, "We made music for you and you did not take part in the dance; we gave cries of sorrow and you made no signs of grief."

For John came, taking no food or drink, and they say, "He has an evil spirit".  The Son of man has come feasting, and they say, "See, a lover of food and wine, a friend of tax-farmers and sinners!" And wisdom is judged to be right by her works.

Could be that TOO is "persecution".

Jesus told the disciples not to be surprised.  Seems to me, Paul is saying the same thing.  What little I've experienced has come up on me suddenly, and from unexpected quarters.   

[Flanagan]

Thanks Sister Kat,  I see what you mean and appreciate your time and efforts to explain to so many your insight into God's word. Along with all who take the lead in explaining to others and organizing this forum for everyone's benefit. You're all deserving of double honor. 1Tim 5:17

[Hellisfake]

When you truly come out of this world and live your life as an example you will be persecuted. But it takes time to overcome and fully repent (IMO) to be worthy of persecution.

But there is hope.

1Pe_3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe_3:17  For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


Thanks dave, that helpt me

[lareli]

ML King was a Baptist minister and serial adulterer.  Constantly cheating on his wife.  We learn this from the biography by his close associate Ralph Abernathy.

Gandhi had terrible racist things to say about black people when he was in South Africa.  Gandhi was a politician whose activities led to the partition of India, which resulted in the deaths of millions of people.

I will not even discuss John Lennon.


As far as what one man (Ralph Abernathy) said about another man (sounds like gossip) I do not know. Nor will I bear false witness toward a man I never saw... But even if it's true, God can speak truth through the mouth of a donkey. Surely He can speak through a cheating baptist minister.

Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.

I'm not saying MLK, Gandhi, John Lennon were prophets or even Gods chosen.. But maybe they were. What do I know and who am I to argue with God.. I'm just a man. It's not my business what God has planned for another man anyhow.... If in that day, I see John Lennon, Gandhi, MLK, enter into the Kingdom before me, who am I to tell God He got it wrong? Perhaps many would weep and gnash their teeth to see a pot smoking hippy enter before them self.

All I'm saying is that in this world the use of violence is esteemed. Those who wield the sword are considered heroes and our protectors. While those who denounce violence and hatred are themselves hated and sometimes violently persecuted.

Christ is the Prince of Peace. God is Love. Both peace and love are hated and crucified by this world. Until He comes and teaches the world righteousness.

[lilitalienboi16]

Largeli, your response bothers me.

It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."

Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?

Hm. What  strange dicsussion.

Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.

There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.

[Dennis Vogel]

All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616.

[Kat]

We really are blessed to have this place where we can find people of like mind to fellowship with, from almost any where in the world. It's always good to remember that Christ is here with us.

Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.

These discussions are for us to weigh one another opinions and hopefully come to a better understanding of these things... and offering Scripture to show why you hold a certain opinion is always beneficial. But there is never a good reason to disparage one another here... some of us have been studying these things longer than others, but that does not always take us to maturity. We can disagree in our opinions, but remember as we learn and grow our opinions change, so why would any condescend to another as we all are still learning?

I don't see any need to judge those in the world, especially if not even a Christian... but doing good is always of benefit, "if anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward" (1 Cor 3:14), and their time will come. But we should look to those we 'know' are God's chosen as our example, the Apostles. Let us keep our eyes on Christ and the Words He gave us and inspired the Apostles to write and be preserved for us. And we even have a modern day example in Ray as well. Yes we're very blessed and fortunate indeed.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Doug]

Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?

[Hellisfake]

Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?

Yes, i cant se no other reson

[lareli]

Largeli, your response bothers me.

It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."

Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?

Hm. What  strange dicsussion.

Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.

There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.

My response doesn't bother you... what you made of my response bothers you because I didn't say any of this stuff.

My statement you're responding to was...

Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.

Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.

I never said Gandhi was racist. You did. I never said Jesus was racist.

[lilitalienboi16]

Largeli, your response bothers me.

It sounds as if you're stating that Ghandi's racism isn't a problem because Jesus was racist. After all, "Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog."

Is that what you get out of Matthew 15?

Hm. What  strange dicsussion.

Ghandi was known to be racist towards the south africans, you need only read some of his writtings to find it. He wasn't the martyr the world makes him out to be.

There really is no comparing Jesus to Ghandi and furthermore, Ghandi is elevated on a pedestal by the worldly people while Jesus is relegated to a myth that never existed. Your justifying racism by using Jesus as an example is the first time i've seen it done but I'm sure the sentiment is rampant upon those who would love to tare Him down.

My response doesn't bother you... what you made of my response bothers you because I didn't say any of this stuff.

My statement you're responding to was...

Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.

Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.

I never said Gandhi was racist. You did. I never said Jesus was racist.

Well Largeli, I certainly don't want to get into a big argument of what you thought or were trying to say. Kat is right with her post and we should not pursue this any further as I think it will be of little benefit.

In my defense of having assumed incorrectly, which you state I did, I will say that your lack of rejecting the notion that Ghandi was racist followed by what appeared to be a justification of racist behavior with a comment of our Lord made it very easy to miss understand you. But that too may be my fault for having attempted to understand more than what was essentially an ambiguous post.

For your question. Did Jesus call the woman a dog or was He stating a spiritual truth that what is holy should not be given to the dogs and swines lest they turn and rend you for it? I don't see Him necessarily saying she is a dog as she clearly proves shes not because Jesus shortly thereafter marvels at her tremendous faith and proclaims her daughter healed. The dogs do not possess such faith or they would be no dogs.

I think He provoked her because He knew how she would respond and thus revealing her tremendous faith in Him resulting in the healing of her daughter which was God's plan all along.

It reminds me of Exodus 32 where God tells Moses He's going to destroy Isreal so that Moses is provoked into prayer so that God doesn't destroy israel and 'changes His mind.' God's plan the whole time was not to destroy isreal but He planned for that to happen through Moses' intercession.

Similarly Jesus' knowing all mankind would certainly give Him the understanding that this woman is no dog but her faith is what was necessary for the healing of her daughter and so Jesus provoked that out of her.

That's what I see. I don't see Him calling her a dog.

Kindly,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Is persecution only if it is done because of your faith?

Doug, what I'd hoped to show in an earlier post is that persecute is a word, and not a "bible word".  It's a word, and not a "topic".  So short answer:  No.  To persecute or to be persecuted is "to pursue" with or without ill-will or intent to harm/harass.  It's ALWAYS the reason BEHIND/FOR the "persecution" that matters.  As Dennis posted above:

1Pe_3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe_3:17  For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

I've said numerous times when this "topic" appears:  Any fool behaving badly can get himself "persecuted" if that's what he wants.  Fools behaving badly are decidedly NOT "living Godly in Christ Jesus" no matter what they say with their mouths or think in their minds.  "Persecution" is a result, not a "proof".

[Doug]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.

For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.

[cheekie3]

Doug -

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply, it certainly helped in my understanding.

For years at work a rather large man (6'6", about 280 pounds) did numerous things to harass me for no reason. Many were physical hurtful including picking me up and turning me upside down, tripping me on concrete floors, shaking me after having a broken elbow knowing that the doctor said to keep it still. One time he tried to hit me with a forklift, however I had moved out the way in plenty of time and just watched (God certainly directed me). These were not all, however I never reported since he would have been fired. I would try and avoid him but he would move towards me which ever direction I would go in the plant. My job wsa such that I had to interact with him many times a week. This went on for years, however now it has stopped and I actually feel comfortable around him. God was certainly teaching me many things including to trust in Him to resolve.

I am pleased that you are no longer being persecuted by this work colleague.

In my experience, bullies tend to be cowards - and they usually cannot take what they themselves give out.

Kind Regards.

George

[Kat]

My statement you're responding to was...

Gandhi said racist things? Christ compared a Canaanite woman to a dog.

Did Christ compare a Canaanite woman to a dog? Yes. Yes He did.
I was comparing someone saying racist things to Christ referring to a Canaanite woman as a dog. If that's not a fair comparison, I'm willing to learn your thoughts as to why and we can have a discussion about it without you putting words in my mouth or falsely accusing me of "justifying racism by using Jesus as an example" as you say.

Matt 15:22  And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed."
v. 23  But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
v. 24  But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
v. 25  Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
v. 26  But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."

Isn't that curious to wonder why Jesus would make such a comment using the derogatory word 'dog.' Of course Christ was well aware of all the circumstances here, and with this woman in particular, a Gentile. I certainly believe this was to become a learning lesson... maybe it was time the disciples needed to began to comprehend that Gentiles are not the lowly beings all Jews had always considered them to be.

So Jesus hearing her plea for help, ignored her at first, and her. a Gentile, being there speaking to Him raised the disciples contempt for her and they began to tell Him "send her away." But then Jesus asked her a question and I do believe He knew exactly how this exchange would go. The word 'dog' was no doubt part of the lesson, because we certainly know that He would never use it as a put down, but maybe it was more in the form of a question to bring attention to it, as surely He had heard His disciples use it many times. So He told her that His mission at that time was to the house of Israel, the Jews, God's chosen people... she was not chosen, but they were considered no more then lowly Gentiles dogs, with no chance for salvation.

As the disciples listened on, she answered that she was not seeking the Jews portions, just a few leftover crumbs of mercy... she evidently believed Jesus was God and had faith that He could grant her request and she would not just give up easily. I'm sure Christ knew this about her and certainly He did honor her request as He already knew He would and to top it off He even acknowledged and commended her "great faith." I suppose the disciples were probably a little shocked by the the way this turned out.

Matt 15:27  And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
v. 28  Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

I believe the disciples learned that Christ did not despise the Gentiles, that word 'dog' was used to show them how ugly their contempt was, because He did show mercy/love for her and healed her daughter. So that had to put a big question in their minds about how they looked down their noses at these people. Because we know that the Gentiles and all people were destined to be eventually chosen... Christ knew it was something the disciples needed time to wrap their minds around after centuries of scorn for these people.

Just my take on this interesting comment from Christ.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Jeff]

All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant, Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

William Shakespeare, 1564 - 1616.

We would all do well to reflect on this every day.