Genesis 5:1

[Nelson Boils]

Genesis 5:1 CLV "This is the scroll of the genealogical annals of Adam:In the day the Elohim creatED Adam,in the likeness of the Elohim He MADE him."

We have learned that God is creatING man in His image. Should the above verse read in past tense?

"Elohim creatED Adam,in the likeness of the Elohim he MADE him"

If this verse is correctly written:How is Adam,now,like God?

[lilitalienboi16]

Genesis 5:1 CLV "This is the scroll of the genealogical annals of Adam:In the day the Elohim creatED Adam,in the likeness of the Elohim He MADE him."

We have learned that God is creatING man in His image. Should the above verse read in past tense?

"Elohim creatED Adam,in the likeness of the Elohim he MADE him"

If this verse is correctly written:How is Adam,now,like God?

This subject comes up often. I believe it was shown that the hebrew has no past tense, only a progressive present tense. So all the verbs should be in the, what is known as, 'ariost' tense, I.E. 'creatING' in english.

But you don't need to resort merely to Genesis to see that God is creatING humanity in His image.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are many verses which show salvation is a process where the end result is to conform humanity after His spiritual image.

To answer your question, 'how is adam now like God?'

Adam and all humanity, which paul referred to as the God race, the race/kin/children of God (See Acts), bear God's physical form/shape/image. Paul furthermore calls generic carnal God hating man the image and glory of God (1 Cor 11:7). He could only say that if he was referring to God's appearance rather than moral spiritual image . We look human because He looks human. Every vision of God, from the old testament to the new, has been that of a man and Jesus who we know is God was born into the flesh as a human and is still refered to as a man after His death and resurrection. The image (form shape) of the invisible God is human (Col 1:15, 2 Cor 4:4, 1 Tim 2:5) hence adam could be creatED past tense in the image of God and yet God can still be creatING humanity in His image (moral character).

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Personally, I have trouble believing that "mankind" looks like it does because that's what God looks like.  He took on flesh and became LIKE US, according to scripture.  To me, the "image of God" that we bear has far less to do with the general "shape" of a human being and far more the way we are "put together".  He breathed Spirit into man and it became living soul. 

God is not a 6 foot tall man.   

   

[Nelson Boils]

Gen 3:22

"And Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, Man is become AS one of us, to know good and evil.."

This is probably one way that I know Adam is like God.

[lilitalienboi16]

Personally, I have trouble believing that "mankind" looks like it does because that's what God looks like.  He took on flesh and became LIKE US, according to scripture.  To me, the "image of God" that we bear has far less to do with the general "shape" of a human being and far more the way we are "put together".  He breathed Spirit into man and it became living soul. 

God is not a 6 foot tall man.   

   

I would enjoy sharing my thoughts further in this discussion if we are permitted Dave. I will share some thoughts under the notion that the discussion is permitted, for now at least.

I really don't think of it as Him having a height or width etc though to appear for all to see Him, would require physical dimensions such as height, width, volume, etc...Measure that in whatever unites you prefer (feet, meters etc...). I see of it more as a form that when we look at Him we recognize. We see Him as something familiar because we've seen it in ourselves all our lives. A form that is similar to ours. Human. Why else would Abraham recognize Jehovah with such comfort and ease to beckon Him in, entertain Him, feed Him? John in revelation describes His appearance and gives Him hair, feet, a waiste etc... In Zechariah we are told His very FEET will stand on the mount of lives. Isaiah describes the appearance of the one above the throne having the likeness of a Man. He appears very human in all His descriptions, why is that? Certainly one can ascertain spiritual truths from physical descriptions but physical descriptions are made because of what is first literally seen. And spiritual truths do not preclude physical realities.

Ray thought that very same thing too, that God is not a man, but he admitted this interpretation was based off a false understanding of Numbers 23. An understanding that he eventually rejected as his own grew.

There are many scriptures to consider in all this but some of them speak very loudly. The invisible God is made visible by the Messiah Jesus who is human. He IS the form/image/shape of the invisible God. 

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Diety bodily.

The way I understand becoming LIKE us has nothing to do with form, shape, or image, and more to do with becoming Flesh. Flesh that can get sick, has to use the bathroom, has to eat, gets cold, gets tired, flesh that can die... That is what I see Him becoming LIKE us means. I don't see it having anything to do with taking on the human form or shape. That would be rather an impossibility as He was already described as appearing human throughout the old testament.

Lastly, I think you may misunderstand something I'm saying. When I say physical, I am not implying that one is FLESH. We know God is spirit but God can have a FORM we can see, what I'm calling 'physical' for lack of a better word, AND be SPIRIT and therefor NOT flesh. In fact, Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY. A body implies a form and as spirit He can choose to appear (become visible to us) or not. And what about When He appears? Will He not then look like a (6ft or whatever feet tall) man?

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Personally, I have trouble believing that "mankind" looks like it does because that's what God looks like.  He took on flesh and became LIKE US, according to scripture.  To me, the "image of God" that we bear has far less to do with the general "shape" of a human being and far more the way we are "put together".  He breathed Spirit into man and it became living soul. 

God is not a 6 foot tall man.   

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

In that verse in Revelation it says that Christ was the "Beginning of the creation," so He was first of all. Now it also shows in Scripture that the Son though glorious as He was, He had a shape, had a form/image. Ezekiel bears witness of this in a vision from God.

Eze 1:1  Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the River Chebar, that the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.

This says to me that The Son was created to have an "image" from His beginning, it was mankind that later was given that same form as God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26). And there are other Scripture that speak of God's form that appeared as a man in the OT. Moses could not look on His face, but he did see the back of Him in Exodus 33. So when you think of it humanity is created to begin our existence in an image physically like The Son has always had.

James 3:8  But no one has ever been able to tame the tongue. It is evil and uncontrollable, full of deadly poison.
v. 9  With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness (Strong: that is, resemblance: - similitude) of God.

James is speaking of the tongue, and of people in general, not just believers being made in the "likeness of God." Paul also appears to speak of all men being in the image of God.

1Co 11:7 For a man, indeed, ought not to be covering his head, being inherently the image(G1504) and glory of God. Yet the woman is the glory of the man." (CLV)

Strong's concordance
G1504 - a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.

Paul explained that as Adam was made a living physical being, natural, and I believe that is in God's own resemblance. The natural comes first and then after our experience in good and evil we would at some point be brought into His spiritual image/likeness, a "new creation" (2Co 5:17 ).

1Cor 15:45  Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

Yes a few are being brought/prepared to be in His spiritual image while still in this physical flesh. But that will not be completed until we are resurrected out of the physical, then "we shall be like Him," spiritually perfected.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

I really don't want to argue, but I remain unconvinced.  Visions are just that--visions.  Likenesses and similitudes are (or absolutely CAN be) referring to any number of things besides "shape" or visible form.  I really don't have to look very hard to see just how man was created in the image/likeness of God.

Alex, we may all be (including me) laboring under too many assumptions for this discussion to be fruitful.  Mine are simple:

1.  I am a living soul.  That's how I am formed in the image/likeness/similitude of God.  I think other creatures are also living souls, but they are not the ones He is creating His family from.  Just us.  And it isn't because He doesn't "look like" them.  There's more to mankind and His working us than the physical characteristics that broadly define "humans".  These things may be "parables"--walking upright, binocular, forward-facing vision, etc.
2.  God can take upon Himself any form (including what looks like a man) in the same way He condescended to speak to men as though He were a limited man.  He wasn't what He "sounded like", so it stands (to me) that He isn't what he "looked" like. 
3.  God humbled Himself and became flesh and lived among us, and died at "our" hands.
4.  Messiah rose from the dead and remained with us until He disappeared in the clouds.  He appeared and disappeared, wasn't limited by physical barriers or "reality".  Was both recognized and not recognized.  That's what a "spiritual body" can do on this physical "plane"--what HE did in the interim. 

I don't recall Ray "recanting" his belief that Jesus will not be "forever" with holes in His hands.  He showed holes when He needed to show holes.

Saying He is a "Man" doesn't counter any of that.  Maybe our definition of "MAN" is too narrow and lacking.  Could be He is the only REAL man who ever lived.  And since it's destiny to become like Him, we're not "real men" quite yet.

Anyway, I can't fit everything in a forum post.  And I don't want to debate.  There is just another way of looking at things (as if there were only two or three) and I think it's quite fitting to challenge assumptions.  We don't have to convince anybody of anything.   
 

[Joel]

The way I see it, God is recognizable by the things he says, and does.


Joel

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear Kat, let me also add to your reference of james and paul this reference of Genesis 9:1

Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Dear Dave,

I agree it is good to challenge assumptions and I am happy we can do that, for now.

Let us consider the hebrew word for image to which this entire thread is intimately bound to.

The hebrew word Tselem for image never refers to moral character or 'spiritual image.' It never implies some metaphorical meaning which is what you are suggesting is the real meaning behind 'image.' In fact, if you look up its limited uses in the old testament you will find that in every case it is used to describe some literal physical appearance.

Here is what ray said about this hebrew word teslem--IMAGE.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
-----------------------

He continues with this statement below, where in you will find him rejecting the notion that he once held in citing numbers 23 as proof that 'God is not a man.' I never said ray thought Jesus would forever be with holes in his hands either. He was raised a spiritual body, that body no longer dies, get's tired, grow's old, has holes in it, etc.. and as you said, spirit can take on the form it desires. This too though implies something that can be observed and not something more metaphorical.

(same email link from above)----------------------------------------------------
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?

Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.

--------------------------------------------------

You are free to disagree with ray. He was only a man. But I think ray was onto something and his reasoning is sound. I cannot ignore these facts and the scriptures presented in favor of God having an image beyond merely implying a moral one but to actually meaning a more literal one that we as humanity can look upon.

Kat brought up the interaction with Jehovah where in moses attempted to see God's glory and God responded that no man is yet able to look on his face and live. After the events of revelation and humanity becoming like God, we are given this answer.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Is this not a hearken back to Moses' deep desire? Is this not humanities desire? To see God? To see God as HE IS?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Let us consider the hebrew word for image to which this entire thread is intimately bound to.

The hebrew word Tselem for image never refers to moral character or 'spiritual image.' It never implies some metaphorical meaning which is what you are suggesting is the real meaning behind 'image.' In fact, if you look up its limited uses in the old testament you will find that in every case it is used to describe some literal physical appearance.

I believe Ray called this whole thing an enigma and he never came to a resolution about it. Look at the very Scripture used as the foundation for some of your comments...

Col 1:15  He is the image[/u](G1504 Strong- a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.) of the invisible[/u](G517 Thayer- unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible) God, the firstborn over all creation.

There is the word "image" and you stated it can only mean literal physical appearance... YET it states in the very same sentence of that verse "the invisible God," invisible means - incapable of being seen. Now I know that you may think that means with physical eyes, but does it?

So that is why this topic just cannot be discussed here to any debt, there is a lack of agreement on this that always leads to debating. Sure we could all continue to give our differing reasoning about these things, but who do you believe. We can develop our own ideas of what God is, but I guess it just shouldn't be declared as a statement of fact, not here. It's just best to leave this topic alone.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Let us consider the hebrew word for image to which this entire thread is intimately bound to.

The hebrew word Tselem for image never refers to moral character or 'spiritual image.' It never implies some metaphorical meaning which is what you are suggesting is the real meaning behind 'image.' In fact, if you look up its limited uses in the old testament you will find that in every case it is used to describe some literal physical appearance.

I believe Ray called this whole thing an enigma and he never came to a resolution about it. Look at the very Scripture used as the foundation for some of your comments...

Col 1:15  He is the image[/u](G1504 Strong- a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.) of the invisible[/u](G517 Thayer- unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible) God, the firstborn over all creation.

There is the word "image" and you stated it can only mean literal physical appearance... YET it states in the very same sentence of that verse "the invisible God," invisible means - incapable of being seen. Now I know that you may think that means with physical eyes, but does it?

So that is why this topic just cannot be discussed here to any debt, there is a lack of agreement on this that always leads to debating. Sure we could all continue to give our differing reasoning about these things, but who do you believe. We can develop our own ideas of what God is, but I guess it just shouldn't be declared as a statement of fact, not here. It's just best to leave this topic alone.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I did say the 'Hebrew' form of the word 'Image' which is what ray pointed out. Genesis is where you will find that Hebrew word being referenced along with its other uses in the old testament, not Colossions. You're quoting the new testament which is written in Greek. The word is not the same there.

That being said, I don't think that God having an image to which He can be seen by in anyway contradicts that as spirit He can be invisible and omnipresent. I also don't think that just because it states He is invisible that this means He will always be invisible forever into futurity. Spirit can manifest itself to the eyes and become visible. Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible.  The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.

Now in all honesty I am confused by the objection to the reference in colossions. If He will become visible at some point again then why the objection to Him having an image we can see? After all, He appeared and was seen throughout the old testament and we are told He will appear again. If not as a man, than how? Or is there no consensus here as to how He will re-appear? Do we even believe He will do that? I always thought it was clear that He would come again for all the world to see and that this was not just metaphorical speak but a real event that will occur.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

I'll end my part by saying I do not imply that "image" has to do with spiritual or moral character.  If you read it that way, understand that's not what I'm saying.  Does that "disagree" with Ray?  I don't think so, but I don't want to be assumed to be holding a "position" from among only two--physical or "moral".

What we are is very definitely LIKE what God is, and that's how He made us.  Spirit into a Form becoming a living soul.  But He's not formed out of dust, nor did the earth "bring Him forth".  Instead, I believe, dust is made out of Him and He brought the earth forth (and all that is in it).

[lilitalienboi16]

I'll end my part by saying I do not imply that "image" has to do with spiritual or moral character.  If you read it that way, understand that's not what I'm saying.  Does that "disagree" with Ray?  I don't think so, but I don't want to be assumed to be holding a "position" from among only two--physical or "moral".

What we are is very definitely LIKE what God is, and that's how He made us.  Spirit into a Form becoming a living soul.  But He's not formed out of dust, nor did the earth "bring Him forth".  Instead, I believe, dust is made out of Him and He brought the earth forth (and all that is in it).

Thank you Dave for clarifying. I can't say I disagree.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Hi Kat,

I did say the 'Hebrew' form of the word 'Image' which is what ray pointed out. Genesis is where you will find that Hebrew word being referenced along with its other uses in the old testament, not Colossions. You're quoting the new testament which is written in Greek. The word is not the same there.

That being said, I don't think that God having an image to which He can be seen by in anyway contradicts that as spirit He can be invisible and omnipresent. I also don't think that just because it states He is invisible that this means He will always be invisible forever into futurity. Spirit can manifest itself to the eyes and become visible. Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible.  The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.

Now in all honesty I am confused by the objection to the reference in colossions. If He will become visible at some point again then why the objection to Him having an image we can see? After all, He appeared and was seen throughout the old testament and we are told He will appear again. If not as a man, than how? Or is there no consensus here as to how He will re-appear? Do we even believe He will do that? I always thought it was clear that He would come again for all the world to see and that this was not just metaphorical speak but a real event that will occur.

God bless,
Alex

One thing that I don't see being spoken of is a distinction between Father and Son, yes there is one God, and that word God can refer to either or both. But I see no differentiation spoken here and the Scripture does make that distinction many times between Father and Son. When using just the word God it does not make what is being spoken clear enough. So that is where I see there is a gap in what is being spoken of, as there is a difference with image, man, invisible.

In the OT when Elohim is used for God, which is plural and that is speaking of the Godhead which includes Them both.  And a few times We and Us is used to further show a distinction in the Godhead.

Gen 9:6  "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

Gen 1:26  Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

Speaking of Christ Jesus things become much more obvious to me as He has shown Himself to have an image many times, before He was in the flesh and after His resurrection. But I certainly believe we will literally see Christ at resurrection when He returns and I think we will always know Christ as a man, even in His glorified state of being.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dennis Vogel]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this thread but a lot of it seems silly.

Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible.  The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.

That was the actual body Jesus used. Not a spiritual representation. And that body was and is still dead. There was no blood circulating in it, etc. But that body did not decay.

Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?

Just because spirit beings can take on the appearance of a physical man proves nothing.

He IS the form/image/shape of the invisible God. 

Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.

In fact, Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY.

No He was not. He used that dead body to communicate.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Is this not a hearken back to Moses' deep desire? Is this not humanities desire? To see God? To see God as HE IS?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.

Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?

Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:

Is the physical body of Christ living in us?

1Co 15:46 (Rotherham)  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

[lilitalienboi16]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this thread but a lot of it seems silly.

Jesus did it after His resurrection with the holes in His hands. I find that to be good proof that spirit can become visible.  The invisible can become visible. I'm definitely open to objection on this though.

That was the actual body Jesus used. Not a spiritual representation. And that body was and is still dead. There was no blood circulating in it, etc. But that body did not decay.

Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?

Just because spirit beings can take on the appearance of a physical man proves nothing.

He IS the form/image/shape of the invisible God. 

Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.

In fact, Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY.

No He was not. He used that dead body to communicate.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Is this not a hearken back to Moses' deep desire? Is this not humanities desire? To see God? To see God as HE IS?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS.

Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?

Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:

Is the physical body of Christ living in us?

1Co 15:46 (Rotherham)  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

Hi Dennis,

I strongly disagree that discussions such as these are silly.

I'm assuming your questions are directed at me as you are quoting me so I will attempt to answer them.

Jesus had a glory before coming to this earth as a man. He ask his Father to restore that glory. Does anyone really believe Jesus was a man before coming to this earth and is still a man inhabiting a physical body? If so, is He limited in any way by that body?

I do believe Jesus is still a man and was so before coming here. My reasons for believing He was man before coming here are from the various descriptions of Jehovah in the old testament which describe Him as a man whether in vision (such as seen by Isaiah, Zecheriah, Daniel etc...) or interacting with the patriarchs such as wrestling Jacob, showing Moses His back, or eating with Abraham. I suppose you could object and say that Jesus is not Jehovah to which case I guess my argument becomes invalid.

Now is He still a man? Well Paul says this about Him after He is resurrected and returned to His former estate:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John also describes Him in revelation with very Human qualities such as hair, feet, a waiste, etc...

Now you asked if that body is physical? Does he still have a body? Paul seems to think so. These statements are all made after His ressurection and glorification:

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his [Jesus] glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 2:9 For in him[Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Speaking of the resurrection, bodies, the first and last adam (Jesus):

1 Corinthians 15:40-49
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the imageof the heavenly (See Phil 3:21).

Paul is speaking of bodies here and says we will bear the image of the heavenly body. He also goes on to say it is raised in glory and power as a spiritual body. He then compares adam and Jesus. One bearing the earthly natural body and the other bearing the spiritual body raised in glory and power.

So why is it ridiculous to believe He has a body? The scriptures atleast reference Him having a spiritual body. So that should also answer your question as to whether I think its physical or spiritual. Clearly its spiritual. I really on the scriptures to determine if He has a spiritual body and not the fact that He can appear as a man. Hope that helps clarify that up.

You asked:

Are you saying God is a physical being? Was He physical before the universe was created and there was nothing physical? Are all the angels physical? Nonsense.

I also tried to explain what I meant by the use of the word 'physical' with David. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words. I was not implying anything fleshy, it was merely a word chosen for a lack of better words which implied He has a form that can be seen by human eyes if He chooses to be seen. I justified this by showing that with His spiritual body He can appear and interact with others as He did after His resurrection. If you believe Jehovah is Jesus (as I do) then you can also look at the many times He literally appeared human in the old testament (like with abraham). This was spirit taking on a visible form that can be seen.

You say He used a dead body to communicate... so He was raised to life into a dead body? I'm not trying to mock but I certainly don't agree with you. I think paul layed out how the resurrection happens for us to see and He says in Philipians that our vile bodies will be transformed into the same glorious body that He now has. I sure hope that isn't a dead body.. heh.

You ask:

Are all these angels physical? Do you think the angels need a physical God to see Him?

Just because spiritual beings can recognize each other does not mean they are physical.

Right. I agree with this so you proved that angels don't have to appear in any form to see God and God doesn't have to appear in a form for them to see Him. At least that would make sense but I suppose there is no scripture which describes exactly how spiritual beings communicate. But we are not spiritual beings. We as humans are limited. We require that God appear before us to see Him in our current condition. We are also told that He will appear on that great day. Do you not believe Jesus will appear? Or perhaps you believe He will appear in His dead body?

You ask

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:

Is the physical body of Christ living in us?

1Co 15:46 (Rotherham)  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

You are clearly mocking the idea that Jesus has a body but I really don't know why because the scriptures describe Him having a spiritual body after the ressurection. There may even be other scriptures I overlooked which directly address Him having a body or mentioning it but they escape me now.

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

Here are a few places Ray spoke of the resurrection and we will have new spiritual bodies.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ---------------------

"That which is born of the flesh  [that's all of us]  IS FLESH  [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit  [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind  [Gk: pneuma-'spirit']  blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 08). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.
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And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again  (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).

Paul says in I Cor. 15 that man's "only hope" of life after death is if there is a resurrection of the dead. And Jesus is the proof that there is a resurrection of the dead--He was the First. When will the next resurrection of the dead be? Answer:

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [euphemism for death] but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor.15:51-52). "At the last trump."

Besides, we will not come up even in resurrection with the same old body that we died with. We will be given new bodies, spiritual bodies, and then only at the last trump, NOT WHEN WE DIE!

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42-44)

http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm -----------------------

Let it be known right here and now, that NO UNIVERSALISTS uses Matt. 25:46 as PROOF that God has promised the righteous "ETERNAL life."  This Scripture proves no such thing regardless of how many thousands of theologians think it does. It promises "aionion [age-abiding or life of the ages] life" and NOT, "ETERNAL LIFE!"  This is not a verse to proves the righteous will live FOREVER. There are OTHER VERSES that prove this. Namely those which speak of RESURRECTION, INCORRUPTION, IMMORTALITY, AND SPIRITUAL BODIES!  Of COURSE, the word "NON" is "not there." The Universalists NEVER PUT IT THERE - Mr. Slick PUT IT THERE, and it doesn't belong there!


http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html ------------

Paul says in I Cor. 15 that man's "only hope" of life after death is if there is a resurrection of the dead. And Jesus is the proof that there is a resurrection of the dead--He was the First. When will the next resurrection of the dead be? Answer:

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [euphemism for death] but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor.15:51-52). "At the last trump."

Besides, we will not come up even in resurrection with the same old body that we died with. We will be given new bodies, spiritual bodies, and then only at the last trump, NOT WHEN WE DIE!

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42-44)
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When non-ending life is meant in reference to our spiritual resurrected bodies, the Scriptures use words like: "incorruption -  imperishable," "glorious," "spiritual,"   and "immortality" (I Cor. 15:42-44, 54). The word "immortality" (Greek, 'athanasia') means "deathlessness--immortality." It does not mean "eternal" or "everlasting." Immortality will never end and Immortals will never die. But the word itself does not mean "everlasting," or "eternal."


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----------------------

Not a quickening PHYSICAL body.

Notice that we are first made a "natural body." Adam (and all of his children—that's US,) did not have an "immortal soul," did he? His body was a "natural" body. Only Jesus was made a "living SPIRIT." It says so right here. Can the natural man with a natural body of flesh and blood ever enter into the Kingdom of God? "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (Ver. 50.) Does the orthodox Christian Church teach that we will have PHYSICAL BODIES in the Kingdom of God? Yes, yes they do—but then again, none of their doctrines are from the Scriptures. "It is raised [from the dead] a SPIRITUAL BODY" (Ver. 44.)
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It is the "resurrection of the DEAD" that is taught in Scripture. Dead PEOPLE will be resurrected, not dead BODIES. And our new resurrected bodies will be SPIRITUAL, and not physical (I Cor. 15:44.)
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here is the clear Scriptural truth as to when our indicated point of redemption is reached and we will finally be fully "like Him," not as an earnest or down payment, but rather paid in full.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be  [If not now, when? At or in death? No...]: but we know that when He shall APPEAR, we shall BE LIKE HIM: for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2.)

There is our answer.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[santgem]

Greetings!

"God is creatING man in His image"


There is always a confusion when it comes to the word 'image', will it be physical or spiritual? There is a tendency of miscommunication when this word pop-up.


PHYSICAL IMAGE

God is creating a man in His image, that means He is creating the humans not the heavenly bodies.(1 Co. 15:40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another; /1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body). It is clearly supported from the two verses that God is creating man in physical appearance.

Then there is an argument; If He is creating man in His image, then God must have an image first. God does not need an image before creating an image. God can create universe without having a pattern of an image of universe, what I mean is that God is able to create everything without having a pattern or a model.


Now, for SPIRITUAL IMAGE;


(1Co 15:49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man. / 1Co 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality). Again, after that physical image creation then it follows the spiritual image creation.


As I said again and again that God is creating man in His image in both Physical and Spiritual ways. The order is always physical then spiritual not the other way around. The verse above is stating 'creating a man ' so it should be physical image first then spiritual image.


Now this is a catch; Example, when human is in the image of a cow(physical), does it mean that God also has an image of that of a cow(physical) before creating a cow, it doesn't make sense. So also, if we have an image of a man it doesn't follow that  God must have an image of a man(physical) first before creating a man in His image. God can create anything without a pattern or image. God only had a physical image of a man literally when he actually became a man born by Virgin Mary, only at that time he had physical body.


My only worries is that when you say 'The Son was created'. God cannot be created. When God is created, automatically you have two Gods. No matter how you interpolate or explain, if you say that God is created then, you have two Gods, there is only one God. Instead of saying created, is there no chance to say revealed rather that created?

[Dennis Vogel]

I do believe Jesus is still a man and was so before coming here.

So you believe the creator of the universe is enclosed in a corrupt fleshly, physical man. Nonsense.

You believe He was a physical man before there was anything physical.

So does Jesus go to the bathroom? If Jesus lives in me, when I go to the bathroom is Jesus also going to the bathroom?

Does Jesus need to breath air? What does He eat? Can He see behind his head?

The scriptures have a lot to say about the flesh.

[Kat]

Dennis, I think it's possible that The Son (not the Father) has a image, that is in the form of a man, but is not physical flesh and blood. In the OT Ezekiel had an experience and the glorious form of the Lord that he saw looked like a man, that was not physical.

Eze 1:26  And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27  Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Certainly God does not 'need' or have to be in an image or form of a man, but I think He has one for our sake. When The Son did come into the flesh then He temporarily took on the physical flesh and blood aspect, so He could die. But at resurrection His physical mortal body "was changed" (Paul described it in 1 Cor 15) back into a glorious body capable of anything He wanted it to do. When the disciples saw Him He explained He was not a spirit, yet there He was like a man.

Luke 24:37  But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38  And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39  Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

That is the glorious resurrected Christ, He had been changed to immortality, incorruptible, but looked like a man... He was familiar they recognized Him, but He was still glorious, capable of disappearing at will (Luke 24:31).

I do believe we will 'see' Christ for real at our resurrection, as John could see Him in the vision in Revelation, there with all His glory and yet was the appearance of a man, though certainly not a physical flesh and blood man.

Rev 1:13  and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
v. 14  His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
v. 15  His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
v. 16  He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Even though these were visions, nonetheless they depicted Christ glorious and He was in the form of a man. I believe that The Father created The Son in the form of a man (not physical flesh and blood until He was born to Mary)... as He was the God we would know and 'see' and hear and relate to, He did it for us.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html -------------------------

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
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Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:

"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat