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Author Topic: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah  (Read 1740 times)

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cheekie3

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Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« on: November 28, 2016, 06:31:58 AM »

All -

I am looking at different Bible Versions; and I have noticed that in The New Testament, some of these Versions use 'Hebrews' instead of 'Jews', or 'Israelites' instead of 'Jews' - and some use all three ('Hebrews', 'Israelites' and 'Jews').

I thought that 'Israelites', 'Jews' and 'Hebrews' were all the same, referencing the people of God from Abraham to the New Testament - that they were originally 'Hebrews', and then became the Nation of 'Israel' and hence 'Israelites', and then when that Nation split into 'Judah' and 'Israel', they were called 'Jews' in The New Testament.

I find this very strange indeed - and if different words are used in The New Testament, then perhaps, these differences are there for a reason.

I know that it is important for us to have the correct words in English from the original Scriptural Texts; and I am wondering if any of you who look at the root meaning of words know if all three of these words are used in The New Testament.

For example:

Acts 12:3 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Acts 12:11 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Acts 13:5 - should the word here be 'Hebrews'?
Acts 13:6 - should the word here be 'Jew'?
Acts 13:16 - should the word here be 'Israel'?
Acts 13:43 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Acts 13:45: should the word here be 'Jews'?
Acts 13:50 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Acts 14:1 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Acts 14:2 - should the word here be 'Jews'?

Although I have read Ray's material several times over, and listened to his audios lots of times, and watched his videos many times, I do not recollect that Ray taught on this specifically.

Thank You.

Kind Regards.

George

 
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 01:34:47 PM »

From the Greek text, Strong's Concordance and the KJV:

Acts 12:3 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios Jews

Acts 12:11 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:5 - should the word here be 'Hebrews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios Jews

Acts 13:6 - should the word here be 'Jew'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jew

Acts 13:16 - should the word here be 'Israel'?
Ἰσραηλίτης Israēlitēs, Israelites

Acts 13:43 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:45: should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:50 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 14:1 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 14:2 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

As best I can tell:
Ἰσραηλίτης-Israelite is not properly  a "translation".  It is a transliteration into Greek as well as English. 

Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews-- is a transliteration into Greek and a translation into English.  If it were transliterated it would be something like Judeos.


Ἑβραῖος, Hebraios Hebrew is found in 11 verses of the Greek Scriptures.  In 10 of them, if refers to the Hebrew Language.  In one, Paul says of himself:

Php_3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Just to add, the descendants of Judah are most properly called Jews.  Judah was the great-grandson of Abraham, so neither Abraham, Isaac nor Jacob/Israel were literally "Jews" or "men of Judah".

 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 02:07:50 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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cheekie3

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 11:21:54 AM »

Dave -

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with this information:

From the Greek text, Strong's Concordance and the KJV:

Acts 12:3 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios Jews

Acts 12:11 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:5 - should the word here be 'Hebrews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios Jews

Acts 13:6 - should the word here be 'Jew'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jew

Acts 13:16 - should the word here be 'Israel'?
Ἰσραηλίτης Israēlitēs, Israelites

Acts 13:43 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:45: should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 13:50 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 14:1 - should the word here be 'Israelites'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

Acts 14:2 - should the word here be 'Jews'?
Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews

As best I can tell:
Ἰσραηλίτης-Israelite is not properly  a "translation".  It is a transliteration into Greek as well as English. 

Ἰουδαῖος Ioudaios, Jews-- is a transliteration into Greek and a translation into English.  If it were transliterated it would be something like Judeos.


Ἑβραῖος, Hebraios Hebrew is found in 11 verses of the Greek Scriptures.  In 10 of them, if refers to the Hebrew Language.  In one, Paul says of himself:

Php_3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Just to add, the descendants of Judah are most properly called Jews.  Judah was the great-grandson of Abraham, so neither Abraham, Isaac nor Jacob/Israel were literally "Jews" or "men of Judah".

I know Paul was a Hebrew of The Hebrews, and a Benjaminite (and therefore of both, the Nation of Israel, and The Nation of Judah).

Regarding your point about Judah and Jews - I know that this is what most people believe - but I find no Scriptural Witnesses to confirm this as so.

There is only one (1) New Testament reference to 'Judah' and that is in the Book of 'Hebrews', and there is no mention of 'Jews' in the Book of 'Hebrews':

Hebrews 8:8 (KJV):
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Warmest Regards.

George

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

John from Kentucky

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 02:23:55 AM »

Natural or physical Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews are totally unimportant.

If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you are a descendant of the Seed, Who is Jesus, and you are a Spiritual Jew, Israelite, or Hebrew; and you will be in the Resurrection of the Just, one of the Elect and Blessed of God in His Kingdom.

None of the Old Covenant individuals will be in the 1st Resurrection because they did not have God's Spirit within them.  Grace and Salvation only began with Jesus.

"Not by might, nor by power, but My Spirit says the LORD God Almighty."
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cheekie3

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 04:45:37 PM »

Natural or physical Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews are totally unimportant.

If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you are a descendant of the Seed, Who is Jesus, and you are a Spiritual Jew, Israelite, or Hebrew; and you will be in the Resurrection of the Just, one of the Elect and Blessed of God in His Kingdom.

None of the Old Covenant individuals will be in the 1st Resurrection because they did not have God's Spirit within them.  Grace and Salvation only began with Jesus.

"Not by might, nor by power, but My Spirit says the LORD God Almighty."


John -

Thank you, as always, for your invaluable input, as invariably you get me to focus, more and more, on the deep things of Almighty God:

I am aware of what is important to His Spiritual Elect; and that it is All By Him, via His Holy Spirit - and it has always been so.

However, if the real meaning of words do not matter, all of us on this Forum and on BibleTruths.Com probably may be accepting that 'eternity' is the real meaning of 'age' or 'aions' - and perhaps, we would also believe in a literal hell for all 'eternity'.

As The Old Testament is there for His Spiritual Elect 'as examples' for His Elect to understand 'Spiritual Truths', I believe the 'True' meaning and the correct 'English Translation' of each and every word in both The Old Testament, and also in The New Testament, is indeed extremely important.

I have lost count on how many false doctrines I used to accept as 'True' (after all, these are in our Bibles), until a certain humble man named Ray, pointed out, through The Scriptures (and not necessarily, what our are in our Bibles), that these false 'fables' cannot be so.

Perhaps, I am making more of this than I should - or perhaps, at this time, He Desires to open up the understanding of His Very Elect, to fully understand what The New Testament Scriptures really have to say about certain Topics, like say, 'fables':

Please note that all Scriptural References are in the King James Version (KJV):
1 Timothy 1:4:
neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Timothy 4:7:
But refuse profane and old wivesí fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2 Timothy 4:4:
and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Titus 1:14:
not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2 Peter 1:16:
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Are there any wise amongst us that are able from The Scriptures to confirm what these 'fables' are, and where these 'fables' originated from - and why The above New Testament Scriptures warn His Very Elect against believing these 'fables'?

Is it important for His Very Elect to know full well what these 'fables' are, or does it not matter whether His Very Elect know what these 'fables' are - as His Very Elect cannot be deceived (even if they do not know what these 'fables' are)?

Warmest Regards.

George

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

John from Kentucky

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2016, 12:04:10 AM »

Natural or physical Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews are totally unimportant.

If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you are a descendant of the Seed, Who is Jesus, and you are a Spiritual Jew, Israelite, or Hebrew; and you will be in the Resurrection of the Just, one of the Elect and Blessed of God in His Kingdom.

None of the Old Covenant individuals will be in the 1st Resurrection because they did not have God's Spirit within them.  Grace and Salvation only began with Jesus.

"Not by might, nor by power, but My Spirit says the LORD God Almighty."


John -

Thank you, as always, for your invaluable input, as invariably you get me to focus, more and more, on the deep things of Almighty God:

I am aware of what is important to His Spiritual Elect; and that it is All By Him, via His Holy Spirit - and it has always been so.

However, if the real meaning of words do not matter, all of us on this Forum and on BibleTruths.Com probably may be accepting that 'eternity' is the real meaning of 'age' or 'aions' - and perhaps, we would also believe in a literal hell for all 'eternity'.

As The Old Testament is there for His Spiritual Elect 'as examples' for His Elect to understand 'Spiritual Truths', I believe the 'True' meaning and the correct 'English Translation' of each and every word in both The Old Testament, and also in The New Testament, is indeed extremely important.

I have lost count on how many false doctrines I used to accept as 'True' (after all, these are in our Bibles), until a certain humble man named Ray, pointed out, through The Scriptures (and not necessarily, what our are in our Bibles), that these false 'fables' cannot be so.

Perhaps, I am making more of this than I should - or perhaps, at this time, He Desires to open up the understanding of His Very Elect, to fully understand what The New Testament Scriptures really have to say about certain Topics, like say, 'fables':

Please note that all Scriptural References are in the King James Version (KJV):
1 Timothy 1:4:
neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Timothy 4:7:
But refuse profane and old wivesí fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2 Timothy 4:4:
and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Titus 1:14:
not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2 Peter 1:16:
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Are there any wise amongst us that are able from The Scriptures to confirm what these 'fables' are, and where these 'fables' originated from - and why The above New Testament Scriptures warn His Very Elect against believing these 'fables'?

Is it important for His Very Elect to know full well what these 'fables' are, or does it not matter whether His Very Elect know what these 'fables' are - as His Very Elect cannot be deceived (even if they do not know what these 'fables' are)?

Warmest Regards.

George

Hi George,

We are just not making a connection.  Those Scriptures about fables are easy to understand.  Not a big deal.  I do not have a clue as to the point you are trying to make.  In a few simple English sentences, can you state one idea from those Scriptures other than the obvious? 

John
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Joel

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2016, 12:40:08 AM »

There are many myths, legends, and fables that are taught in modern day Christianity, taught especially to kids as truth. Not to mention things that grown ups believe, and can be proved false by sound doctrine.

Joel
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cheekie3

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2016, 03:31:51 AM »

John -

I agree that we are not making a connection:

Natural or physical Jews, Israelites, or Hebrews are totally unimportant.

If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you are a descendant of the Seed, Who is Jesus, and you are a Spiritual Jew, Israelite, or Hebrew; and you will be in the Resurrection of the Just, one of the Elect and Blessed of God in His Kingdom.

None of the Old Covenant individuals will be in the 1st Resurrection because they did not have God's Spirit within them.  Grace and Salvation only began with Jesus.

"Not by might, nor by power, but My Spirit says the LORD God Almighty."


John -

Thank you, as always, for your invaluable input, as invariably you get me to focus, more and more, on the deep things of Almighty God:

I am aware of what is important to His Spiritual Elect; and that it is All By Him, via His Holy Spirit - and it has always been so.

However, if the real meaning of words do not matter, all of us on this Forum and on BibleTruths.Com probably may be accepting that 'eternity' is the real meaning of 'age' or 'aions' - and perhaps, we would also believe in a literal hell for all 'eternity'.

As The Old Testament is there for His Spiritual Elect 'as examples' for His Elect to understand 'Spiritual Truths', I believe the 'True' meaning and the correct 'English Translation' of each and every word in both The Old Testament, and also in The New Testament, is indeed extremely important.

I have lost count on how many false doctrines I used to accept as 'True' (after all, these are in our Bibles), until a certain humble man named Ray, pointed out, through The Scriptures (and not necessarily, what our are in our Bibles), that these false 'fables' cannot be so.

Perhaps, I am making more of this than I should - or perhaps, at this time, He Desires to open up the understanding of His Very Elect, to fully understand what The New Testament Scriptures really have to say about certain Topics, like say, 'fables':

Please note that all Scriptural References are in the King James Version (KJV):
1 Timothy 1:4:
neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1 Timothy 4:7:
But refuse profane and old wivesí fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2 Timothy 4:4:
and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Titus 1:14:
not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2 Peter 1:16:
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Are there any wise amongst us that are able from The Scriptures to confirm what these 'fables' are, and where these 'fables' originated from - and why The above New Testament Scriptures warn His Very Elect against believing these 'fables'?

Is it important for His Very Elect to know full well what these 'fables' are, or does it not matter whether His Very Elect know what these 'fables' are - as His Very Elect cannot be deceived (even if they do not know what these 'fables' are)?

Warmest Regards.

George

Hi George,

We are just not making a connection.  Those Scriptures about fables are easy to understand.  Not a big deal.  I do not have a clue as to the point you are trying to make.  In a few simple English sentences, can you state one idea from those Scriptures other than the obvious? 

John

I think I will put this one to bed, for now, as it appears that I am alone in my thinking on this.

My mother has a motto, in that she keeps saying 'it does not matter' - and it has been her way of keeping the peace - as she does not like confrontation, and she believes that is the best way.

I guess I am wired differently, as I have always thought and said 'that everything matters' - and I know that unless you confront an issue - you will not be able to resolve it (e.g. try confronting only 50% of a problem with your car, and see where that gets you). I have always found it strange that most people are very uncomfortable confronting difficult or sensitive matters.

To me, John, if the words are different, and the translators made them the same - this is wrong - and His Elect should desire to know the true word and its true meaning.

I have studied The Scriptures, and to me, I believe that there are many mistranslations regarding the Hebrews / Israelites / Jews in both the Old Testament and also in the New Testament.

We appear to disagree, as you are primarily focusing on the 'Spiritual', whereas, I believe that I must first understand the correct translation and its true meaning before I am in a position to ascertain its 'Spiritual' application.

The point I made about ''fables'', is that I personally doubt that anyone of us on this Forum really know what all these 'fables' are - we all have a knowledge of what these are likely to be be - but I was looking for Scriptural Witnesses that confirm what these 'fables' are.

Warmest Regards.

George
 
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

cheekie3

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 03:39:25 AM »

Joel -

Thank you for pointing this out:

There are many myths, legends, and fables that are taught in modern day Christianity, taught especially to kids as truth. Not to mention things that grown ups believe, and can be proved false by sound doctrine.

Joel

I was focusing on the fact that His Elect need to know the false (i.e' the 'fables') and the Truth (i.e. His Doctrines and Commandments) before His Elect can correctly evaluation the 'errors' from the 'Truth'.

Warmest Regards.

George

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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

mikeincanada

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 11:24:30 AM »

Joel -

Thank you for pointing this out:

There are many myths, legends, and fables that are taught in modern day Christianity, taught especially to kids as truth. Not to mention things that grown ups believe, and can be proved false by sound doctrine.

Joel

I was focusing on the fact that His Elect need to know the false (i.e' the 'fables') and the Truth (i.e. His Doctrines and Commandments) before His Elect can correctly evaluation the 'errors' from the 'Truth'.

Warmest Regards.

George

I don't know of any scriptural proof of what exactly those 'fables' are.  Doesn't the scripture say that if we know "His" voice then we'll know what isn't of Him? So do we really need to know all about fables to know the truth?

(Joh 10:27)  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
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cheekie3

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Re: Natural Hebrews / Israelites and Israel / Judah
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 02:32:16 PM »

mikeincanada -

You make a very good and essential point about hearing His Voice and knowing His Voice:

Joel -

Thank you for pointing this out:

There are many myths, legends, and fables that are taught in modern day Christianity, taught especially to kids as truth. Not to mention things that grown ups believe, and can be proved false by sound doctrine.

Joel

I was focusing on the fact that His Elect need to know the false (i.e' the 'fables') and the Truth (i.e. His Doctrines and Commandments) before His Elect can correctly evaluation the 'errors' from the 'Truth'.

Warmest Regards.

George

I don't know of any scriptural proof of what exactly those 'fables' are.  Doesn't the scripture say that if we know "His" voice then we'll know what isn't of Him? So do we really need to know all about fables to know the truth?

(Joh 10:27)  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

At one time, I thought that 'speaking in tongues', 'being baptised in water', and 'some will be lost for good' were all Scriptural Truths.

It took the teachings of Ray to point out to me exactly why these doctrines were in fact 'fables' of men, and not The Doctrines of The Scriptures and Almighty God.

He writes His Laws in the hearts and minds of His Elect, and The Holy Scriptures confirm His Truths.

Yes, we should know His Voice, and not follow any false prophets, apostles, or doctrines.

We learnt of His Love from The Scriptures, and that we are to be like Him and Love Him with all that we are, and also to love our neighbours as ourselves - and not repay evil for evil, but do good to those that do evil to us.

The Scriptures confirm All His Truths; and I personally believe, that His Elect should know what these 'fables' are from His Scriptures.

Kind Regards.

George
 
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The Acts of The Apostles 1:8 (NIBEV) "But you shall receive power when His Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
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