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Who are the Real Hebrew Israelites today
lareli:
--- Quote from: octoberose on September 25, 2017, 06:35:13 PM ---
Oh, and the two witnesses - that's so interesting it's brought up because I was reading about the two witnesses in Revelations and how they were dead and then rise again. What could that be about in Revelations if we understand the two witnesses to be two or three witnesses to the truth? Ray did not think these were people or spiritual beings, just biblical truths? But how does that fit? I don't understand it.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps (or perhaps not) an interesting side note,
I was listening to this podcast about 'cults' yesterday and I learned that the two leaders of the Heavens Gate cult believed, and deceived about 30 or so followers into believing, that they were the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation.. they ended up committing the largest mass suicide in America history..
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 29, 2017, 01:38:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on September 29, 2017, 12:46:40 AM ---The Scriptural rule of two or three witnesses to establish a Scriptural Truth applies to everyone.
What are the two Scriptures that say America and Europe are the Israel of God? Just two Scriptures please.
--- End quote ---
John, I'm, sorry...but that may be one of the most foolish questions I've seen in a while. There aren't "two scriptures" that say I am typing on a computer keyboard at this moment, either. I assure you, however, that I was. America and Europe are not mentioned by name in Scripture, so one has to look at the "references" and make a judgement. That America and the Europeans make up the largest part of the history of Christendom is a no-brainer. Aside from a few exceptions (exceptions to the rule are allowed, as in some of the physical Jews of Christ's day were also part of His church, including all of the Apostles) the "Church" spread out with the Roman Empire primarily into Europe. The history from that point is pretty clear as well.
If not Europe and the US, then what "kings" have been responsible for the spread of Christendom throughout the world? Who else has said "Lord, Lord" and not done the things He said? Who else is responsible for "many wonderful works" but are cast aside because He never knew them? Who else has said the He is the Christ, but have deceived many?
I know it's not all about "kings" and governments. These things are also "symbolic" of Spiritual things that also reside in individuals. But "prophecy" is pronounced in broad terms.
HIS Spiritual church, however, comes out of that Church--the "Israel of God" in prophecy.
--- End quote ---
No need to be sorry. I am not going to cut my wrists over something said about me. I cannot be offended.
One thing I learned from Ray is once you have the truth, then do not let it go.
Another learned from Ray is the need for at least two witnesses to establish any Scriptural Truth. God gave us the rule to keep His true Church in the Truth over the ages.
It is not about if you are typing on your keyboard. It is about what is Scriptural Truth and Doctrine.
Ray taught that the false church cannot even provide one witness, much less two, to their lying teachings of immortal soul, heaven, hell, eternal punishment, God is a trinity, and on and on they go.
In the Book of Galatians, the inspired Apostle Paul spoke of the Israel of God. But he did not mention America or
Europe.
The false Worldwide Church of God taught us unfortunate members that the United States and Great Britain were the modern day descendants of Israel. So I am very familiar with this false doctrine.
So this foolish follower of Jesus asks a simple question. For those of you who believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God, what are your two Scriptures in proof? Two Scriptures please in support of your teaching.
Dave in Tenn:
Show me two or three scriptures that mention you and me by name, and I'll respond. And I'm not talking about the Apostle and the King who were named before we were. Yet I am certain that we are both "in there" and spiritual truths are true about us both.
To be clear to largeli and others, this link has a much fuller explanation of the term than John has provided.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16903.msg153479.html#msg153479
It goes back to the basis of what was said earlier in the thread (which John agreed with completely). The Israel of God in prophecy is the whole of the "Church" (Judeo-Christianity, the Great Whore, Jerusalem below, spiritual Sodom and Babylon, and those being called out of her) while the "Israel of God" which Paul mentioned is this "Israel (Church)" undergoing judgement and separation--the "circumcision/uncircumicision" that matters he had just moments before written about.
Two judgements. One fire. https://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
And the one John mentioned in the above thread: https://bible-truths.com/lake8.html
The called and the called and chosen. The church, and His church.
If christian Europe and christian America are NOT in any way, historically or currently, heirs, daughters, and proponents of the Great False religion, then we can all breathe a huge sigh of relief that they are not in the prophecy and get dressed for Church this Sunday. Except for the Sabbath-keepers. It's crystal clear from History that christian Europe and christian America have assumed the major role in the institution and spread of carnal religion. Since it IS clear, and since the prophecy is clear to any with eyes to see, then to see them as a fulfillment of the prophecy makes perfect spiritual sense. Only and exclusively? Of course not...but predominately.
What Ray called christian Europe and America was the "Israel of God" in quotations. Somehow, I doubt that the WWC made such a spiritual distinction.
John from Kentucky:
I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) for over 25 years. Ray was a minister in that church. Dennis and many others here were also members, although I do not recall meeting anyone here while I was a member of the WCG.
The WCG taught that the English speaking peoples were descendants of Joseph, whose sons received the birthright blessing from Israel. The people of Great Britain and the Commonwealth nations came from Ephraim and the people of the United States came from Manassas. The descendants of the other Ten Tribes lived in Western Europe. What drivel and false teaching. No Scriptural proof in support of those falsehoods. No two witnesses.
Jesus freed me from the slavery of the WCG. I will never go back to any false teachings. Jesus placed me on the sands of a seashore. I looked behind me and this ugly Beast rose out of the ocean. The Beast was me and Jesus slayed it by the Words from His mouth.
"Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established."
I will not believe that America and Europe are the Israel of God unless at least Two Scriptural Witnesses are provided, that they are a Spiritual match, and that they do not contradict other Scriptures.
Anything else is just opinion.
"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD of hosts."
Dave in Tenn:
As I expected. WCG promotes carnal, completely unsupported doctrine. I don't blame you for being glad to be free. Had I ever believed such carnal-minded twaddle, I'd be glad to be rid of it too. There are phrases from my own background (Southern Baptist) that still ring my bell when I hear them, even though my understanding has been changed concerning them.
I just want it made abundantly clear that Ray Smith did NOT teach that, and did not MEAN that when he used the phrase.
Therefor the "phrase" holds a different meaning for me, and I trust to any who read the links. Read the links. That's all I can ask of anybody.
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