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John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers

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cheekie3:
All -

I love this passage of The New Testament Scriptures, as it is full of the riches of His Wisdom:

John 8: Amplified Bible (AMP)

12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, “[a]I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” 13 Then the Pharisees told Him, “You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid.” 14 Jesus replied, “Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge according to human standards [just by what you see]. I do not judge anyone. 16 But even if I do judge, My judgment is true and My decision is right; for I am not alone [in making it], but I and the Father who sent Me [make the same judgment]. 17 Even in your own law it is written that the testimony of two persons is true [valid and admissible]. 18 I am One [of the Two] who testifies about Myself, and My Father who sent Me testifies about Me.” 19 Then the Pharisees said to Him, “Where is this Father of Yours?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 20 Jesus said these things in the treasury, as He taught in the temple [courtyard]; and no one seized Him, because His time had not yet come.

21 Then He said again to them, “I am going away, and you will look for Me, and you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were asking [among themselves], “Will He kill Himself? Is that why He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 That is why I told you that you will die [unforgiven and condemned] in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am the One [I claim to be], you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to Him, “Who are You [anyway]?” Jesus replied, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 I have many things to say and judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I say to the world [only] the things that I have heard from Him.” 27 They did not realize [or have the spiritual insight to understand] that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man [on the cross], you will know then [without any doubt] that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own authority, but I say these things just as My Father taught Me. 29 And He who sent Me is [always] with Me; He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” 30 As He said these things, [c]many believed in Him.

31 So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word [continually obeying My teachings and living in accordance with them, then] you are truly My disciples. 32 And you will know the truth [regarding salvation], and the truth will set you free [from the penalty of sin].” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone. [d]What do You mean by saying, ‘You will be set free’?”

34 Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, everyone who practices sin habitually is a slave of sin. 35 Now the slave does not remain in a household forever; the son [of the master] does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, then you are unquestionably free. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you plan to kill Me, because My word has no place [to grow] in you [and it makes no change in your heart]. 38 I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side [in His very presence]; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.”

39 They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are [truly] Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. 40 But as it is, you want to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God. This is not the way Abraham acted. 41 You are doing the works of your [own] father.” They said to Him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one [spiritual] Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father [but He is not], you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God [out of His very presence] and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative [as self-appointed], but He [is the One who] sent Me. 43 Why do you misunderstand what I am saying? It is because [your spiritual ears are deaf and] you are unable to hear [the truth of] My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and it is your will to practice the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar and the father of lies and half-truths. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [and continue in your unbelief]. 46 Which one of you [has proof and] convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears [the truth of] God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.”

48 The Jews answered Him, “Are we not right when we say You are a [e]Samaritan and [that You] have a demon [and are under its power]?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon. On the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 However, I am not seeking glory for Myself. There is One who seeks [glory for Me] and judges [those who dishonor Me]. 51 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word [by living in accordance with My message] he will indeed never, ever see and experience [f]death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon [and are under its power]. Abraham died, and also the prophets; yet You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never, ever taste of death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too! Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is [worth] nothing. It is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him fully. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). [g]He saw it and was delighted.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not even fifty years old, and You [claim to] have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, [h]I Am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus concealed Himself and left the temple.

Warmest Regards.

George

indianabob:
George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.

Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?

Indiana Bob

cheekie3:
Indiana Bob -

Regarding your questions below:


--- Quote from: indianabob on October 10, 2017, 02:29:23 PM ---George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.

Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?

Indiana Bob

--- End quote ---

I believe Ray has a lot of substance about your questions, on these two papers, on the BT site:

https://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm

https://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm

This has been discussed many times on this Forum; and there are differences of understanding among us, with regards what Ray taught about The Father and His Son.

I understand that Ray taught that Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father; who created all things through His Beloved Son - who is the beginning of all creation.

Please note the following Scriptures:

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in My Father's Name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25).

"And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it..." (John 17:26).

"I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me." (John 17:6).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name..." (John 17:12).

"I am come in My Father's Name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive..." (John 5:43).

Psalm 2:2- "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] and against His Anointed, saying,"

Psalm 2:7-"I will declare the decree: the LORD [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."

Psalm 2:11-"Serve the LORD [Heb: Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son..." (and Psalm 2:12)

"Being made so much better than the angels, as He has by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they." (Heb. 1:4).

"Wherefore God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him A NAME which is ABOVE EVERY NAME" (Phil. 2:9).

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name "those whom" Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11).

"And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" (Eph. 1:19-21).

"The Word was God... And the Word was made flesh..." God began fulfilling this aspect of His name when He came to us in the Flesh of Jesus Christ.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with them, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:2).

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17) .

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28) .

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER ..." (Eph. 1:17) .

In his https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html paper, Ray taught this:

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD ! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

    Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .

    "Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16) .

    "Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4) .

    "The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3) .

    "The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

    "God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT) .

    "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42) .

    "Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18) .

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1) . (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

    "Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking] : 'Thy throne, O GOD , is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8) .

I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:

A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.

I hope this helps our understanding.

Warmest Regards.

George

Dennis Vogel:

--- Quote ---A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
--- End quote ---

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'

cheekie3:
Dennis -

Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:


--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 10, 2017, 04:16:28 PM ---
--- Quote ---A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
--- End quote ---

This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.

Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'

--- End quote ---

Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.

Warmest Regards.

George

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