> General Discussions
John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on October 10, 2017, 04:54:40 PM ---Dennis -
Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 10, 2017, 04:16:28 PM ---
--- Quote ---A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
--- End quote ---
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
--- End quote ---
Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.
Warmest Regards.
George
--- End quote ---
Not really George.
Rotherham:
Joh 1:1 Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2 The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,
You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."
You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.
cheekie3:
Dennis -
Thank you for the clarification:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 10, 2017, 06:06:24 PM ---
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on October 10, 2017, 04:54:40 PM ---Dennis -
Thank you for confirming what Ray taught:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 10, 2017, 04:16:28 PM ---
--- Quote ---A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
--- End quote ---
This is not what Ray taught and you should know that by now George.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The Word did the creating by the power of the Heavenly Father.
Ray has said more than once that Jesus was created. The 'Firstborn.'
--- End quote ---
Unless I am missing something, I have stated what you have stated.
Warmest Regards.
George
--- End quote ---
Not really George.
Rotherham:
Joh 1:1 Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God.
Joh 1:2 The same, was originally, with God.
Joh 1:3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,
You said "Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son" which is not the same thing as Jesus making all things as shown. The Father gave Jesus the power to do the creating. It may seem petty, but it could be significant. And as Ray liked to say "you've got to pay attention to the words."
You said "The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created." which is not what Ray teaches. Ray teaches Jesus was created.
--- End quote ---
A little clarification on my part:
1. I did not say that I believed that The Son was not Created - I said that some on this Forum believe that The Son always existed with The father - hence not Created.
2. I said that Ray taught that God's First Creation was The Only Begotten Son - and that it was The Father in The Son doing the works that Jesus did. Jesus Himself said this in The New Testament on more than one occasion.
Did Jesus Himself not testify that the works that He does are His Father's Works, and it is The Father in Him, that is doing His Works:
John 10:32 (KJV):
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 14:10 (Amplified Bible):
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not say on My own initiative or authority, but the Father, abiding continually in Me, does His works [His attesting miracles and acts of power].
John 14:10 (KJV):
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
To me at least, this is the bottom line - Is it possible for The Son to do all these Mighty Works of Creation, if His Father was not in Him? If you take The Father out of The Son, can The Son still do His Mighty Works?
I believe we all agree that 'The Father has Chosen His Beloved Son to do His Mighty Works'.
Warmest Regards.
George
Dave in Tenn:
George:
1. Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself.
2. There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things. We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated).
3. Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe. Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time. Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things.
4. You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful. We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms. And we don't.
cheekie3:
Dave -
Thank you for your input on this, as I always appreciate your unique insight into these things, whereby, Peter said 'some things are hard to understand' ; and please note my responses below, for your consideration:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on October 10, 2017, 08:53:57 PM ---George:
1. Let's let the links you posted allow Ray to speak for himself. George: Is that not what I have done, by referencing what Ray taught in his papers, and providing appropriate segments for clarification?
2. There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things. We cannot cherry-pick our way to understanding, and they do not contradict (especially when rightly translated). George: I know full well that The Holy Scriptures do not contradict; and it is very dangerous to cherry pick - that is where all the false Doctrines stem from. I do not comprehend what you mean by 'There is no end of scripture that speaks to these things'.
3. Try not to interpret what "other members" of this forum do or do not believe. Firstly, everybody who IS is working this out over time. Secondly, nobody who is working this out over time is capable of explaining things. George: I am not trying to interpret anything, as we all know full well that The Holy Scriptures provide all the answers we need. With regards to others views, I was merely summarising what these were, based on numerous previous threads and posts, which you contributed to.
4. You're welcome to your understanding, but asking for "correction" is not helpful. We can "point to" what Ray taught, but we cannot "correct" every theory unless and until we all understand all the terms. And we don't. George: My understanding is that within The Holy Scriptures, as I am not interested in my opinions, and I do not recollect asking for correction of anything - unless you are making a reference to the Scriptures about 'correcting those that contradict', which is what Ray's teachings are all about, are they not?
--- End quote ---
Warmest Regards.
George
Dave in Tenn:
You said:
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
A: Dennis addressed this.
B. I don't know of anybody who believes this the way you've put it....unless they are in general disagreement with Ray on the subject. Ray said it was axiomatic that without "Son" there is no "Father". Do you think I can explain that as opposed to the way you put it, in a forum post? "The way you've put it" is why I made my points. No boxes.
I appreciate the fact that you've posted links and pieces of the articles. I would rather you didn't "summarize". Not on this topic. It gets us nowhere.
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