Indiana Bob -
Regarding your questions below:
George,
Thank for the passage v. 23 and v. 58 presented in your message.
Are we to understand from this passage and others to confirm the idea, that Jesus was saying that he was God the son or not?
And if so are we to understand that there were two in heaven prior to the creation of the Earth and all that is in it?
There seems to be a general confusion or dispute over these ideas and some clarity would be helpful.
Has Ray Smith addressed this question and where can his comments be found?
Indiana Bob
I believe Ray has a lot of substance about your questions, on these two papers, on the BT site:
https://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htmhttps://bible-truths.com/Creed.htmThis has been discussed many times on this Forum; and there are differences of understanding among us, with regards what Ray taught about The Father and His Son.
I understand that Ray taught that Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father; who created all things through His Beloved Son - who is the beginning of all creation.
Please note the following Scriptures:
"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in My Father's Name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25).
"And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it..." (John 17:26).
"I have manifested Thy Name unto the men which Thou gavest Me." (John 17:6).
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name..." (John 17:12).
"I am come in My Father's Name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive..." (John 5:43).
Psalm 2:2- "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] and against His Anointed, saying,"
Psalm 2:7-"I will declare the decree: the LORD [Heb: YHWH-Jehovah] hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee."
Psalm 2:11-"Serve the LORD [Heb: Jehovah] with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son..." (and Psalm 2:12)
"Being made so much better than the angels, as He has by INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent name than they." (Heb. 1:4).
"Wherefore God also has highly exalted Him, and given Him A NAME which is ABOVE EVERY NAME" (Phil. 2:9).
"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own Name "those whom" Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11).
"And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" (Eph. 1:19-21).
"The Word was God... And the Word was made flesh..." God began fulfilling this aspect of His name when He came to us in the Flesh of Jesus Christ.
"For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9).
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with them, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:2).
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17) .
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28) .
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER ..." (Eph. 1:17) .
In his
https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html paper, Ray taught this:
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD ! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5) .
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16) .
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4) .
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3) .
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT) .
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42) .
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18) .
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1) . (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking] : 'Thy throne, O GOD , is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:
.
I believe most of us on this forum agree with one of the following:
A. Our Creator is Our Heavenly Father who created all things through His only Begotten Son - who is the 'Firstborn'.
B. The Father and The Son always existed - and The Son was not created.
I hope this helps our understanding.
Warmest Regards.
George