John 8:12-58 - How Jesus answered His accusers

[Joel]

Also Santgem,
Not sure what you are saying in your statement; "Many are called but few are chosen......Yes is true!"
I'm not questioning the "many called but few are chosen" statement, but would you clarify how it meshes with the rest of your post?

Joel

[John from Kentucky]

When there is only God;

Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.  Isa 43:10

I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior.  Isa 43:11

...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.  Isa 44:6

...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.  Isa 44:8

...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.  Isa 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.  Isa 45:5

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:6

I am the LORD, and there is no other.  Isa 45:18

And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.  Isa 45:21

For I am God, and there is no other.  Isa 45:22

Thank you for these old friends santgem.

Scriptural proof that there is only One God.

[Musterseed]

1 John 5:20.  ANd we know that the Son Of God has come and has given us understanding
So that we may know Him who is TRUE, IN his son Jesus Christ, He is the TRUE God and eternal
life.

From video, Inherit the Kingdom
Can two individuals be ONE GOD,,,,,,,YES

[Dennis Vogel]

It seems I owe you an apology George. 'Through' is a proper term:

(ASV)  yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

(CLV)  nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."

(Diaglott-NT)  but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.

(KJV)  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

(Rotherham)  Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.

(YLT)  yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;


These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

If they are one and the same, how can Jesus be equal with himself?

We know that Jesus and God the Father are one: Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

But that does not mean they are one and the same being. Jesus died but God the Father is immortal and cannot die.

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If they are one and the same being then God the Father also died, which we know is not possible.

But perhaps I misunderstood you and you mean there is one God comprised of two separate individuals? One of whom died for our sins, but the other cannot die.

[Dave in Tenn]

(ASV)  yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

(CLV)  nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him."

(Diaglott-NT)  but to us one God the Father, out of whom the all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Anointed, through whom the all things, and we through him.

(KJV)  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

(Rotherham)  Yet, to us, there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and, we, for him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and, we, through him.

(YLT)  yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;


These verses also state that there is one "God the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ." That's two individuals, but only one is called God the Father. But Jesus is equal to God:

That's not what Ray taught, Dennis.  At the very least, he raised the important question about how that verse is translated.

Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

My Lord AND My God.  Here, at least, not TWO, but ONE.

I know this can be difficult, but Ray promised that the "enigma" was not covered in any of the world's common theologies.     

Joh 5:18  Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Since it is the Jewss talking, perhaps this verse should read "...He said also that God was his Father, making Himself appear to be equal with God."  They certainly didn't believe He was "equal to God".  They certainly didn't believe He was God. 

The very next verse is: Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.  (To the Jews, in parable).

Besides, God is Spirit.  Can Spirit be an "individual"?  We only know Father through Son (No man can come to the Father but by the Son).  We only see Father through Son (He is the express image of Invisible God...If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father).

We are formed in His image.  We're not "two individuals".  Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.  And Jehovah God is--one God the Father, out of whom the all things. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened... one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things.

I know there are dozens of Scriptures that mention Father and Son.  Jesus himself used the term, and often.  But His words are Spirit.  He describes things Spiritually, even when he's not speaking in parables.  And to claim every reference to "God" in the New Testament as being about "God the Father" is (or may be) theological assumption based on the supposition that that there are two "individuals".  I don't doubt the Father.  The literal Father of Jesus Christ the man was Holy Spirit.  Can Spirit (which is everywhere) not also be in one "place" specifically and for an appointed time?  "The Father is in me..."  Can't Christ (who now has immortality) Who humbled Himself to become a man, died, rose and ascended to the "right hand" of the Father (which Ray taught is not a literal seat on a literal right hand), given glory (which Jehovah God does not share, much less with another "individual") be both Lord and God?

----------

THE GLORY OF GOD

If Jesus and Jehovah are just different spellings of the very same name, how can Jesus be Jehovah and Jehovah be Jesus? Good question, and I will try to solve that enigma for you in my paper "Solving the Enigma of God." But for now, let's notice a few things that do prove that this is so.

Did Jehovah say that He was NEVER gives His glory to another? Yes He did.

"The God of Israel, the LORD of hosts...For Mine Own sake, even for Mine Own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will NOT give My glory unto another" (Isaiah 48:2 &11).

"I am the LORD [YHWH-Jehovah/Jesus]: that is My Name: and My glory will I NOT give unto another, neither My praise to graven images" (Isaiah 42:.

If Jesus is not Jehovah, how do we square these statement of Jehovah in Isaiah with the following statement of Jesus Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John?

"For the Son of man shall come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE COMES IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38).

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when HE SHALL COME IN HIS OWN GLORY, AND IN HIS FATHER'S [GLORY], and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:26)..

"And now, O Father, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF [Thine OWN glory] with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5)..

"When Jesus heard that He said:

"This sickness is not unto death, but FOR THE GLORY OF GOD, that THE SON of God might be GLORIFIED THEREBY" (John 11:4).

God's word does not contradict. When Jehovah gave Jesus His "glory," He did not give it to "another." Jesus is not "another." Jesus IS Jehovah! And... AND, Jehovah IS JESUS.

Notice below just Who John prepared a road in the wilderness for. Isaiah says Jehovah, whereas Mark says Jesus.

-------------

Jehovah/Jesus existed before the foundation.  There is none beside Him.  Jesus the man was born at a certain time and place and recieved that name, and died "in the fulness of time".  It may well be a logical conclusion that Son can't be Father, but it is not outisde the scope of Spiritual understanding that Father can become Son. 

There's no specific mention of "Father" in the Old Testament (except what refers to Son).  Jesus came to reveal the Father.  Jesus did not come to reveal a "being" who did not exist before He did.  Jesus did not come to reveal an "individual" now to be known as "the Father" that isn't mentioned in the Old Covenant Scripture at all, much less as an individual.  Jesus did not come to reveal another God not known before He revealed Him, much less one more powerful.  He came to reveal the Father, and He said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.  Speaking Spirit.

         

[cheekie3]

All -

Perhaps we are not that far apart after all.

If our understanding is based of these two terms:

1. begotten

2. came from

Then, if the root meanings are these:

1.  to procreate or generate (offspring)

2.  originate

Do we have 'create' or 'procreate'; and is it all about Fatherhood?

Were my own sons created, or procreated? Did the Life in me, create, or procreate, the Life in my own sons?

Genesis makes a distinction between 'create' and 'make' - in that He first 'created' and then he 'made' - so if The Son was also created, why do The Holy Scriptures use 'begotten' and 'came from'?

Maybe, it is as simple, or as complicated, as:

Our Beloved Creator (The Father) is so awesome that His sons and daughters cannot behold His Glory; and that is why He sent forth His Beloved Son, to create all things, including His spirit messengers (angels), and mankind - and then, eventually His Beloved Son revealed Our Heavenly Father to us?

Then, when Our Beloved Creator (The Son) became a Man of flesh and blood (but without ever sinning, as The Father is always with Him), and died, and washed all of our sins away with His shed blood - He remained a Man, with all the fullness of His Father - to be Our Mediator, to Save us all?

So what is the endgame, when His Plan is fully fulfilled for all His Creation - and mankind are the glorious Sons of God? Will we see Him as He is? And Who is He? Is He Our God and Saviour, The Son embodied by The Father (in Glory), as a Man with a Spiritual Body, like we all will be? So then, will we be like Him, and see Him 'face to face'?

Warmest Regards.

George

[cheekie3]

Psalm 22 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.

For the choir director; upon (a) Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? (b) Far from my deliverance are the words of my (c) groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but (d) I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy, O You who (e) are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not (f) disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me (g) sneer at me; They (h) separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 " (i) Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from (j) birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb.
11 Be not far from me, for (k) trouble is near; For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within (l) me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me (m) in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; (n) A band of evildoers has encompassed me; (o) They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my (p) soul from the sword, My only life from the (q) power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22 I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him; All you (r) descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you (s) descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The (t) afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the LORD. Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before (u) You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S And He rules over the nations.
29 All the (v) prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who (w) cannot keep his soul alive.
30 (x) Posterity will serve Him; It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Footnotes:

a)   Psalm 22:1 Lit the hind of the morning
b)   Psalm 22:1 Or Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
c)   Psalm 22:1 Lit roaring
d)   Psalm 22:2 Lit there is no silence for me
e)   Psalm 22:3 Or inhabit the praises
f)   Psalm 22:5 Or ashamed
g)   Psalm 22:7 Or mock me
h)   Psalm 22:7 I.e. make mouths at me
i)   Psalm 22:8 Lit Roll; another reading is He committed himself
j)   Psalm 22:10 Lit a womb
k)   Psalm 22:11 Or distress
l)   Psalm 22:14 Lit my inward parts
m)   Psalm 22:15 Lit to
n)   Psalm 22:16 Or An assembly
o)   Psalm 22:16 Another reading is Like a lion, my...
p)   Psalm 22:20 Or life
q)   Psalm 22:20 Lit paw
r)   Psalm 22:23 Lit seed
s)   Psalm 22:23 Lit seed
t)   Psalm 22:26 Or poor
u)   Psalm 22:27 Some versions read Him
v)   Psalm 22:29 Lit fat ones
w)   Psalm 22:29 Or did not
x)   Psalm 22:30 Lit A seed

[Dave in Tenn]

George and all...by way of encouragement.

1.  Jer 31:34  And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, (not Ray, not Dennis, not me. nor anybody else) Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more

2.  The heaven (collective mind) of the heavens (individual minds) cannot contain Him.

3.  I feel after Him perchance I might find Him...though He is not far from any of us.  For in Him we live, and move, and are.

I hope those three thoughts make you as happy, content, and humbled as they do me.

This is all His workmanship.  We have no cause to glory.  Jesus is Lord.   

[cheekie3]

Dave -

Thank you for sharing this; which I am sure, we all appreciate, and are humbled, and Blessed, by these wonderful Scriptures:

George and all...by way of encouragement.

1.  Jer 31:34  And they do not teach any more Each his neighbour, and each his brother, (not Ray, not Dennis, not me. nor anybody else) Saying, Know ye Jehovah, For they all know Me, from their least unto their greatest, An affirmation of Jehovah; For I pardon their iniquity, And of their sin I make mention no more

2.  The heaven (collective mind) of the heavens (individual minds) cannot contain Him.

3.  I feel after Him perchance I might find Him...though He is not far from any of us.  For in Him we live, and move, and are.

I hope those three thoughts make you as happy, content, and humbled as they do me.

This is all His workmanship.  We have no cause to glory.  Jesus is Lord.   

We all yearn for His Truths; and for Him to be pleased with us, in all that we are, and think. and do.

Warmest Regards.

George

[Dennis Vogel]

This God the Father and Jesus are one-in-the-same is nonsense as far as I am concerned. But there are some sincere and well meaning people here and that should be respected.

So even though my life is about as messed up as possible at this time I will find the time in the next few days and address this issue here.

But in the meantime someone please explain how God the Father died. How did that work?

[John from Kentucky]

Turtles all the way down.

[Dennis Vogel]

Okay, it's been 24 hours and no replies. But we all have minds of our own and different opinions. So a different question:

Jesus is our elder brother and we are all One with Him: Several translations of Hebrews 2:11

(ASV)  For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

(CLV)  For both He Who is hallowing and those who are being hallowed are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to be calling them brethren,

(Diaglott-NT)  He both for sanctifying and those being sanctified out of one all; for which cause not he is ashamed brethren them to call,

(KJV)  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

(Rotherham)  For, both he that maketh holy, and they who are being made holy, are, all, of One; For which cause, he is not ashamed to be calling them, brethren,

(YLT)  for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified are all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

And we know we shall all be like Jesus:

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Question: We have minds of our own but does Jesus have a mind of His own? Or is God the Father and Jesus' mind one-and-the-same?

[Dave in Tenn]

I think God the Father IS the "mind" of Jesus/Jehovah, since the question was asked that way. 

But that's not scripture.  The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Jesus/Jehovah.  That 'is' "scripture", though I don't know of a "verse" that says that directly.  I'd be thrilled to discover two or three that did or said it better, but in the meantime it's scripture explaining scripture.

But in the meantime someone please explain how God the Father died. How did that work?   I tried to reply last night, but the forum wouldn't come up.  I can't answer with the wisdom of men.  When Jesus/Jehovah died, he committed His Spirit to the Father.  Not all of our deaths are so deliberate, but--passively, at least--that's what happens at our dying.  His Spirit did not die.  Soul died...same as us.

Jesus/Jehovah is the "intermediary" between God and Man.  The Link between Spirit and the Physical universe (which is created out of Spirit).  The physical universe fills all the descriptions/statements which Jesus said about Himself when speaking about this relationship spiritually.   It receives nothing aside from Spirit.  It doesn't do anything apart from Spirit.  Etc.  Spirit fills all the conditions Jesus said about the Father, spiritually.  It's greater, etc.

We can't compare or think of "spirit" as a giant Caspar, the friendly ghost.  Without Spirit, there isn't anything at all.  In Him we live and move, and are. 

Does that go beyond Ray?  Maybe (and maybe not), but not far beyond, because he taught me (or verified to me) every littler thing that takes me 'here', and asked the right questions to stir the pot.

I'm still not "explaining" things.  I don't understand "Spirit" completely--and can't.  He IS unapproachable in the brightness of His glory, and no man has seen His face.     Except the One Who knows Him best--Who is in Him, and in Whom He is. 

Same as us.

WNT 1Co 2:11  For, among human beings, who knows a man's inner thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? In the same way, also, only God's Spirit is acquainted with God's inner thoughts.


   

[Musterseed]

Was BT down this morning? Wouldn't come up for hours. Any way I would like to address Dave about the statement I made about (Can two individuals be one God? yes)

These are Ray's exact words he used when discussing The Father and Son being one God. I was
directing the forum to the video Inherit the Kingdom. Did anyone watch it to verify the use of the word individuals?      IN Christ... Pamela

[Dennis Vogel]

I think God the Father IS the "mind" of Jesus/Jehovah, since the question was asked that way. 

So are you saying they are one and the same? Jesus does not have a mind of his own? Yes or no please.

[Dave in Tenn]

So are you saying they are one...

Yes.

...and the same?

No.  No more than your spirit and you are the same. 

Jesus does not have a mind of his own? Yes or no please.

I don't know what this question/statement means.

[John from Kentucky]

The Scriptures teach only One God.

The Many believe in their false doctrine of the Trinity, three God's.

Many here on the Forum believe in the equally false doctrine of two Gods, a Father God and a Jesus God.

But there is only One God.  One mind, One personality, One God.  As Jesus said, "I and the Father are One."

But as Paul taught, there are different aspects and functions of this One God.  God can chew gum and skip rope at the same time.

One function of God is the Father, "out of whom are all things."  Another function of God is the Son, "by whom our all things."  One God, different aspects or functions.  But as Paul said, "Not many know this."

Which is why Elohim is a plural noun, but the OT uses as applicable to a single entity.

I briefly talked to Ray about this when I noticed he was coming to a different understanding of God's being at the end.  I said many on the Forum will have a hard time with understanding this.  He told me we must follow where the Spirit leads.

Only God's Spirit can bring true understanding of the True God.  I am not sure if God wants this Truth to come out here and now, or will Jesus wait until the next age to teach this to His Elect?

[Dave in Tenn]

Was BT down this morning? Wouldn't come up for hours. Any way I would like to address Dave about the statement I made about (Can two individuals be one God? yes)

These are Ray's exact words he used when discussing The Father and Son being one God. I was
directing the forum to the video Inherit the Kingdom. Did anyone watch it to verify the use of the word individuals?      IN Christ... Pamela

Yes, it was down this morning.  Here's the link to that Video.  http://youtu.be/QhGbw_cgweQ

In it, after declaring from Scripture that Jesus most definitely is God, Ray said at about the 12 minute mark.  "One person? No.  One God?  Yes....Can two individuals be one individual?  No.  Can two individuals be one God?  Yes."  That's the quote.  Listen to what immediately precedes and follows and make of it what you will.

Just as Ray wished in one of the last home studies that we could get away from the word "God", I wish we (and I believe he as well) could get away from words like "individual".  He did make the point that only Jesus (as a man) could properly be called a "person".  The Trinitarians have One God in three "persons".  The Unitarians have God as one "person (or a synonym)", though that person (or synonym) is not Jesus Christ.  But it seems we're stuck with it.

Of what use is it?  Persons=individuals=beings=entities.  It's all the same.  Might as well say Dudes or Fellers.  Get to talking about "aspects" or "expressions" or some other more abstract term, and it begins to make more sense how One God could be two--even how two God's could be One.  It's even possible to understand that "individual" might mean (more metaphorically) an aspect or an expression.  Maybe that's even what Ray was driving toward, and not a sentence to be cut out of the whole with an "!" after it.  I don't know...I just suspect.   

None of those terms are "scripture", however,--and not just Dudes and Fellers.  They're just useful (if at all) to express what is meant by Father and Son.  I think I will stick to "Father" and "Son", and let the chips fall.  If "I" am nothing like "Them", then I care no more about it than how many Philistines Samson killed.  I'm just a piece of meat with a brain.

I've been silent on this issue since we decided to limit discussion on it (a decision I supported and still do, for my own reasons).  I can go back to my cave, but I cannot "un-think" what Ray himself led me to, or confirmed in me, bit by bit by bit.


   

[Dennis Vogel]

Just tell me what word you prefer in place of individual and I'll use it Dave.

The forum was down last night for server software upgrades but it took longer than expected.

[Dennis Vogel]

I do not doubt that Jesus has God's spirit. But was it to the extent that the two of them were and still are identical? Are they one-and-the-same being as some suggest?

This goes back to my question; Does Jesus have a mind of His own?

Ray has said more than once that God is not 'a' spirit ... God 'is' spirit.

But if God the Father and Jesus are one-and-the-same, why even use Jesus as an intermediary when you are talking directly to God in the first place? But it makes sense if God created a Son to be the intermediary.

An intermediary by definition passes on information as a link between two individuals. Words have meaning.

And it is Jesus that judges the world. Why even use Jesus when there is no difference? But it makes sense if God created a Son to do the judging, just as we were created to be the judged. Jesus is our elder brother.

And if they are one-and-the-same how can Jesus really be a Son? This destroys the Father/Son relationship.

Jesus says "our Father" in the so called 'Lord's Prayer.' The word 'our' means yours and mine. The Son cannot also be His own Father and vice versa.

And if He is the firstborn of what we will be like, does that mean we will also be one-and-the-same as God the Father? Will we become as God?

Dave said "He IS unapproachable" but Jesus is the intermediary and approachable. Doesn't that make the point that they are not one-and-the-same?

Will all of us become exact clones of God the Father? Else why put 50 billion different people through good and evil?

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Dozens of times God the Father and Jesus are referred to as being different individuals. The Son cannot be His own Father and vice versa.

I'll reply to JFK's post in detail tomorrow.