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Author Topic: Miracles  (Read 4393 times)

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ZekeSr

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Miracles
« on: November 03, 2017, 06:34:30 PM »

Miracle—According to Webster:
1: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment.

How many of us, in the course of our lives, have experienced this “thing” we call a miracle and wondered if it really was one. I know I have. And I’ve been left with the question of whether or not it was definition number one or number two. Of course I’m not talking about something quite as dramatic as the parting of the Red Sea or the gushing of water from a rock in the desert, but in our own lives it may be just as significant.
 
Here are two of my experiences:
#1
About forty years ago, after living a rather raucous lifestyle, I started to become involved with the Worldwide Church of God, but not yet a member. I was tithing and even had a couple of representatives visit my wife and me in our home. I must add, at this point, all during my “conversion period” I was having a problem with a perpetually sore throat with no obvious physical cause. After I attended an evening bible study held in Bethlehem, PA (which is about an hour’s drive from where we live), we were invited to attend their Sabbath service held in the same location. I was nervous, and my wife was reluctant. A few miles from our destination, my wife broke out in hives all over her face, neck and arms. To make things worse, at about the same time, the car started slowing down, bucking a little and missing something awful. I wasn’t sure if it would make the distance before breaking down completely. As we approached the center where the service was held, I saw from the highway what I assume were two attendants closing the double doors to the auditorium entrance by the parking lot. Disheartened, I pulled into the lot and turned around to hopefully go home or perhaps find a service station. My wife’s hives almost immediately disappeared and the car started to run as well as it ever had. We drove home. It wasn’t too long after that episode when we ran into one of our old friends. That was the night we “officially” went back to living the way we had in the past. And my throat cleared up literally in a matter of minutes. I don’t really remember how long it was when the news broke about the scandals in the church, but I think it was quite a while.

#2
One day, we were driving down a local boulevard when a speeding pickup truck ran the stop sign of a cross street. There was no way it could miss T-boning the passenger side of our car. But it did “miss.” I cannot explain the split second in which our time seemed to change as this vehicle passed by in front of us. Believe me, it was on a dead certain collision path and did not loop around. The only way I can describe it is that it was as though we floated in time while, in the same fraction of a second, the truck moved in front of us and went roaring out of sight on the other side of the street. I wonder what Einstein would have to say about this experience and relative space-time.

I realize there are possible scientific and psychological explanations for every event. But I’ve never stopped wondering and waffle back and forth. How many coincidences constitute a miracle? My wife is absolute on the subject. A miracle is a miracle. Perhaps I question it because to believe is a difficult and fearful thing.

Mar 9:23  And Jesus said to him, If you are able to believe, all things are possible to the ones believing.
Mar 9:24  And immediately crying out, the father of the child said with tears, Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!

Mike
 

 

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 10:59:50 PM »

What a great post, Mike.   :D

With apologies to Mr Webster, "2: an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment." is also "divine intervention in human affairs."  And that's just not limited to miracles.  There are no human affairs without Him.

Neither have I experienced anything quite so physically obvious as the the parting of the sea.  And I also question hard accounts of modern-day miracles of that sort, partly because I've been bamboozled before.

The night I came to BT the first time  is one of my "miracles".  I was "looking for" just the opposite of what I found.  Related to that, I forgot to bookmark the page and stumbled onto the browser "history" function--something I'd never used or knew how to use.  Then there were many times I had a concern/question pop into my mind and the very first link I opened at "random" answered it.

Granted, those last two, at least, don't much compare to your driving experience.  If that actually, physically happened like you've described it, that takes a little of the shine even off the parting of the sea.   ;D 

Most other (and there aren't a lot) of "extraordinary" occurrences in my life I probably can understand directly with "scientific" or "psychological" explanations.  But that doesn't mean God is not at the center of them.  Maybe that's how He has helped my "unbelief".  I don't know.   

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

indianabob

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2017, 05:41:27 PM »

Friends Dave and Mike,

I loved your stories.

Can't help it but during reading each of your messages what came to mind is God creating the Earth in one day.

Hard to understand and very difficult to believe... So? What good is it to be God if any feat is impossible?

After all what is the globe, the earth, the planet? Isn't it just a conglomeration of atoms with various differing mass that God created in the first place? What could be simpler for God once HE made the first atom? What's an atom? Isn't it just some form of electrical energy surrounding 99.999% space?
If God can make one atom with His mind...why not a whole bunch of them all at one time?

I know that this is gross speculation, but I can visualize it in my mind and so may you eventually; because we are being made in the image of God.
Are we not?   ::)    ;D

Ole Indiana bob
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ZekeSr

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2017, 08:02:07 PM »

Dave,

Thank you for your kind words. I too have experienced some of the things you described. Perhaps it is the small miracles that are truly profound. The ones that lead us little by little. I must admit to having been hesitant when it came to writing of our experience with the accident that didn’t happen. I know it could easily be taken as a pile of lying B.S.
I hope this is not the case, as I tried to be as accurate as possible in my description. Even now I wonder if I should have shared it and still wonder…did this really occur and why us. But all I can say is… yes, it did occur as described.


Bob,

You’re right, Bob. We effectively consist of almost nothing rather than mostly something. It’s a proven scientific fact. And I’ve read and listened to the arguments of whether or not the earth and the entire known universe was formed in a matter of days or billions of years. That, of course, leads us to the issue of mindless evolution vs creation—religion vs science.

Now, try this as a thought to ponder: A photon of light formed in the core of a star can bounce around and take up to 100,000 years to work its way out to the surface before it escapes into space. Now, when you look up at night, that star’s photon of light may have taken millions of years to reach your eye and be absorbed. That time frame is from our human perspective. But light itself travels at the speed of light. The faster you approach the speed of light the more time slows down. In fact, at the speed of light time stands still. There’s Mr. Einstein again. Therefore, from the perspective of that photon, the instant it was formed is the same instant it was absorbed by your eye—in no time at all.

James 1:17  every act of good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom is no change or shadow of turning.

2Pe 3:8  But let not this one thing be hidden from you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is "as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 

I’m not going to challenge anyone’s beliefs on the subject. But I do contend the “argument” may be a moot point.

Mike

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 05:22:53 AM »

Hi again, Mike.  I'm not doubting your account of the missed accident.  It's just like you said there strange things going in in our own perception of things--call that "psychological" or maybe just "brain-science"--so I'm definitely not calling you a liar.  It happened, but I can no more explain to you WHAT happened than I can explain how Jesus walked on water.  And Peter too.  Was it the water?  The bodies?  Both?  Neither? 

I'd like to ride one of those photons sometime.  The passage of time depends on relative position and movement, though, if I'm understanding it correctly.

Bob, nobody is saying it is impossible for God to create an earth in one 24-hour-day.  That's not what the scripture says, and it would be more pointless for Him, in doing so, to have stacked the evidence so strongly against that.  Personally, I prefer a God who is patient and long-suffering (that IS the fruit/works of the Spirit of God) over the other type.  I think would marvel a billion times more over the former (if I was capable of such marvel) than over the latter.

Regardless, we'll know when we know and not a nano-second before that.  Scripture is alive and will endure regardless of the true and factual information of ever-evolving science.  They're not done yet, and neither is He.  Babylon, on the other hand, will fall.   

I'm one of those that, if forced to choose between "science and religion", would choose science.  You don't want to make me stumble, do you?   :)   

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 01:45:34 PM »

Everything is of God, even my cat. And if you break it down everything is energy. But that's not how God currently relates to us or we to Him.

We should stick to the reality God created for us in this life, even if it is an illusion.

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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indianabob

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »

Friend Dave,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I will need some time to present a great but short reply with minimal opinions.
Expect something of minimal value in a short while. (smile)

Meanwhile this: science is about things we know and not things we speculate about.
Professional scientist are supported by sponsors, mentors and politicians needing votes.
Their work, however helpful in bringing benefits to the masses, is governed by popular demand.
If it isn't supported by peer review it will not be published in the favored journals of Universities e.g. Harvard.
If there is no money in it, it will not be developed except by sponsors with a desire to have their name on something.
Our friend Albert Einstein was a great guy, but a careful examination of his total body of work will show that he borrowed much of the ideas he published from others and that theories such as time dilation have yet to be demonstrated, and I love Star Trek movies with Warp Speed at multiples of the speed of light careening around stellar bodies too distant to have been seen since light from them does not warp toward the space ship of its own volition.
These theories makes for great entertainment, but it is not science.  :)
= =
I just think that God uses all types of people to accomplish His will, it is we who idolize them undeservedly.

Thanks for your kind attention to my weird views. Ole I-bob
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 03:11:37 PM »

Bob, I mostly agree with all of that (except the first line), and would only add that there are multiple branches of science and more "sprouting" all the time--some more "settled" than others.  The day of the Renaissance man is over.  Forced to choose, however, I'd still choose.  Replace "science" with "religion" in your paragraph (excepting the first line, and adding a few words for clarification) and it makes as much  or even more sense. 

Ray showed me it wasn't necessary to abandon scientific truths in order to understand Scripture on these matters.  I only had to abandon translations, traditions, and theologians.  On that, I'm happy to oblige.

 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 03:42:20 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

ZekeSr

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 04:42:44 PM »

I agree, Dave and Dennis. There is too much evidence of an “older” universe. And science doesn’t really conflict with scripture at all. In fact, the more they discover, the more penetrating and parallel it becomes in my eyes, including the fact that our reality is an illusion. Nevertheless, it's real. That’s kind of what I was trying to get across. As far as time and relativity is concerned, I like the example of what they call the twins paradox: One twin leaves on a rocket and travels near the speed of light for a quick round trip while his brother waits behind. He is only gone for a few minutes from his perspective. But when he comes back, so much time has passed that his waiting brother is an hundred years old.

I once saw a young-earth advocate on TV say that all the dinosaur fossils and such were put there by God to simply make the wise out to be fools. And, of course, there are those who believe we were here with the dinosaurs and they all died in the flood. Personally, I don’t accept either idea. Neither do I accept institutional science going out of its way to ostracize anyone of their peers who disagrees with the atheistic point of view in reference to what is being discovered.
 
Getting back one last time to the missed accident (and then I’m dropping it): Perhaps the reason why something like that is so difficult to accept, even as a participant in the event, is because it does not manifest itself like in the movies. There are no sudden shafts of light beaming down from above, no rising sound of a chorus in the background or the booming of an orchestra. It just happens without any fanfare, no different than getting up in the morning (so to speak). In both of the cases that I related, we just kind of said to each other, “Wow! What was that all about?” The full gravity of it didn’t even sink in right away.
I think it is no different than the “small” stuff Dave spoke of which can be every bit as life changing, perhaps even more. And yes, I guess when you get right down to it, all of everything is a miracle of God.

Mike
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Wanda

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 02:36:55 PM »

Mike, thank you for putting yourself out there and sharing your experiences with us. I read your post and all of the comments last week, but was very hesitate to share my own experience until now.

This happened back in the late seventies...my sister and I were both trying to quit smoking cold turkey. She quit about three weeks prior and that encouraged me greatly and I tossed my cigs in the trash.

The first couple of days were bad, but the third was unbearable. I was physcally sick and felt like I was loosing my grip on reality.  My sister stopped by and was alarmed when she saw my condition. I asked her if she would please take my two young sons, so I could pull myself together and she did.

Now alone, and in a most desperate situation, I was standing in my living room talking to God, and at some point,  I moved a chair into the middle of the room, sat down and began to beg God for his help. I told him without his help I could not do this on my own.

How do you find words to recount something of a Super Natural nature, I don't know, but I'll try...within seconds, all time, space and reality as I knew it, vanished. Slowly and ever so gently, a very light fog that contained little floating light particles, came from above me, encircling me as though I was in a transparent cocoon. What followed was an all consuming peace, contentment and love, so much love. A love so great words could never describe.

All I know is I never wanted this to end, but as gently as it had come, it began to lift gently from me. I sat in that chair trying to adjust my thoughts, from what seemed like, one dimension into another. I was afraid to move anything but my eyes for fear the peace, love and contentment would be taken from me. Reluctantly got up just stood near the chair for a bit longer, until I was so overcome with joy I had to get to my sister and share this with her, no matter how crazy it would sound.

My physical transformation and joy was immediately obvious to her, so much so, all she could do at first was stare at me wide eyed, with a look of shock. That was followed by, OMG! You smoked didnt you? I told her I defiantly had not and she needed to sit down because I was about to rock her world.

I've had many years to ponder this and I have no choice to believe this was God's Devine Intervention. I agree with you guys about the little ones too, I cherish all of them.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 04:09:50 PM by Wanda »
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ZekeSr

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2017, 02:51:46 PM »

Thank you for sharing that, Wanda. A thought just occurred to me, and I am going to speculate with a question. Did your experience happen while you were still linked to mainstream Christianity? Obviously, mine was. And I recall Ray recounting an episode he had with a woman who was possessed by demons during the time he was associated with the WWC. It was, to say the least, an extremely out-of-the-ordinary experience.
I wonder if these things occur as a way of keeping us as individuals tied to the fact that there really is more going on than meets the eye … especially during those times of transition and disillusionment.  Perhaps it’s a way of keeping the “doubting Thomas” in us held at bay. I suppose I should not be using the word ‘us’, as I can only speak for myself. But I’d be interested in your opinion.
Mike
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indianabob

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2017, 04:38:24 PM »

Hi Mike,

Just one question and if you prefer please send it to my Personal Message department. Thanks

1. I appreciate that there are many opinions and that most, even if they disagree, are sincere.
My question for you is, to what evidence do you refer that proves or at least indicates an "older" universe.
 AND can be demonstrated apart from theory. I know that we have experimented with light speed in the laboratory and in our solar system, but much outside our own galaxy is speculation even to this day and theories change every generation as newer data is found.
[The conclusions of science are always in question and it is good to learn what they are based upon.]
For one example since God created light, how do we know that the "speed of light" today is as it has always been?
Aren't we accepting an assumption that things are now as they always have been?

Your thoughts on this matter are greatly appreciated. Indiana Bob

I agree, Dave and Dennis. There is too much evidence of an “older” universe. And science doesn’t really conflict with scripture at all. In fact, the more they discover, the more penetrating and parallel it becomes in my eyes, including the fact that our reality is an illusion. Nevertheless, it's real. That’s kind of what I was trying to get across. As far as time and relativity is concerned, I like the example of what they call the twins paradox: One twin leaves on a rocket and travels near the speed of light for a quick round trip while his brother waits behind. He is only gone for a few minutes from his perspective. But when he comes back, so much time has passed that his waiting brother is an hundred years old.

I once saw a young-earth advocate on TV say that all the dinosaur fossils and such were put there by God to simply make the wise out to be fools. And, of course, there are those who believe we were here with the dinosaurs and they all died in the flood. Personally, I don’t accept either idea. Neither do I accept institutional science going out of its way to ostracize anyone of their peers who disagrees with the atheistic point of view in reference to what is being discovered.
 
Getting back one last time to the missed accident (and then I’m dropping it): Perhaps the reason why something like that is so difficult to accept, even as a participant in the event, is because it does not manifest itself like in the movies. There are no sudden shafts of light beaming down from above, no rising sound of a chorus in the background or the booming of an orchestra. It just happens without any fanfare, no different than getting up in the morning (so to speak). In both of the cases that I related, we just kind of said to each other, “Wow! What was that all about?” The full gravity of it didn’t even sink in right away.
I think it is no different than the “small” stuff Dave spoke of which can be every bit as life changing, perhaps even more. And yes, I guess when you get right down to it, all of everything is a miracle of God.

Mike
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 06:43:19 PM »

Quote
My question for you is, to what evidence do you refer that proves or at least indicates an "older" universe.

Then all the myriad pieces of physical evidence that prove otherwise would make God out to be a liar.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1Sa 15:29  And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Heb 6:18  That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

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ZekeSr

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 07:21:20 PM »

Bob,
I think I'll let Ray do the talking on this one, as he can explain it so much better than me. I suggest you go to the BT site on YouTube and watch Ray's video titled "Why Science and the Bible Do Not Agree." 

Mike
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kfarggrub

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 03:50:58 PM »

Thank you all for sharing what you have here.  There was a time in my life when I felt singled out by God, and not in a good way.  I could not then understand why others around me were experiencing feelings, odd manifestations, and various other "spiritual" things.  It truly bothered me...thinking I was the red-haired step child.  As God matured me, I began to be thankful for my lack of experiences.  It seems I was meant to walk by faith, as that seemed fitting to God for my life.  What I thought was spiritual rejection on God's part was actually spiritual maturation on mine!

Now having said all that, I can share that, like some have shared here, there have been very private kindnesses and encouragements from the Lord on a very personal and unseen level....all done without fanfare, religiosity, or flowery anything...just simple, unassuming, and silent as LIGHT.

I was helped by those unusual moments, but I can honestly say I am far more grateful for having been gifted the faith of Jesus.

Lastly, I am very very thankful to have been given a revelation of Jesus Christ in this earthly life and to listen, discern, and learn from likeminded brethren.  -So glad to be here and count it a privilege.

Kim

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Wanda

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 04:32:06 PM »

Great question Mike, and something I've given allot of thought to since posting my experience.

I was actually having a bible study at the time. I had never had a close relationship with God, due to being subjected as a young child, to the horrors of hell by my grandfather. He preached it thunderously, from his throne/pulpit every week.

My thinking at the time, was if I was ever going to know the softer side of this wrathful God, I would have to first clean my life up. Honestly, I'd never really turned to him in prayer of my own desire, until the day I begged for his help.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:45:10 AM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
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Wanda

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 05:09:27 PM »

Im posting from a cellphone...not easy.

You ask for my thoughts...
After reading my words I've had many doubts swirling around this pea brain of mine. Maybe that's why I finally decided to share this after all these years.

Subtle deception, wrapped in poweful emotions comes to mind. It is not a pleasant thought to entertain, but Im more about truth in these matters.

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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Ricky

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 09:57:28 PM »

No supernatural events have ever happened in our time that we can prove to be from God, and never will happen. Miracles that the bible says happened back in those bible days also cannot be proven to have ever happened. Life has been set up through evil so that it appears that God is not real.
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

Wanda

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 02:13:22 PM »

No supernatural events have ever happened in our time that we can prove to be from God, and never will happen. Miracles that the bible says happened back in those bible days also cannot be proven to have ever happened. Life has been set up through evil so that it appears that God is not real.

And yet...Many have been given the gift of sight. Proof of this miracle is in the seeing. That's proof enough for me.☺
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 02:27:06 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Miracles
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 02:50:42 PM »

Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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