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[Rocco]

I was hoping someone could tell me what Ray said about the punishment that the preachers who preach eternal punishment in hell would actually receive themselves. On Ray's YouTube video/audio about "Repentance" toward the end of the video he said that he found out what their punishment would be and said we wouldn't believe it when he told us, but apparently he was saving it for another study. I've listened to all of his YouTube videos and never heard the answer.

[Musterseed]

From the Towers Papers

To theologians and ministers context is the god of interpretation. Something is true ONLY in the
Context in which it is found. To them there are no universal truths, only contextual truths.

Theologians want everything in context—� God will put them in context and God will punish
and destroy them IN CONTEXT.

Ray Quotes,,,, Jer.25:34-38 Jer.25:26

I agree with Doug, maybe they will be persuaded to believe their own literal preaching of
hell. IN CONTEXT

Ray Quotes “ Don’t get on God’s froward side. For if we insist on doing abominable things,
God will turn those abominations back on us.

This is my limited understanding and I’m open to correction.    In Christ Pamela

[Rocco]

I found this transcript on this site and its from the audio I heard that I and based my question on. Here is the section in question.
They worship this monster that they think will torture most of humanity in real fire for all eternity! They gloat in it and they glory in it. It’s sick! It’s total spiritual perversion of the mind and heart. It is the ultimate blasphemy. Trust me when I say that. 

If you could witness this actually happening... you’d be going through these chambers of hell and here you’d be looking at some teenagers that were rebellious and they’ve been burning in the fire for 79 trillion eons, screaming at the top of their lungs every second for trillions of eons. These people worship a God like that! WORSHIP! People get all huffy when I say, 'that’s garbage, that’s unscriptural heresy.' They don’t think about these things. These evils are unspeakable.

Let me tell you something, the scribes and the Pharisees never taught a doctrine this damnable. You listen to Jesus Christ. He called them everything but… I won’t say it. They never taught a doctrine half, a tenth, not a billionth as evil as what the church is teaching today. I’m telling you, this teaching of hell is the ultimate blasphemy. There is no greater sin that any human being can think or do, than to believe that the God that they worship will actually torture their mothers and fathers and some of their sisters and brothers and relatives in real fire for all eternity. It’s the ultimate sin. They think they are doing God a favor by teaching this.

No, they’re not going to be tortured for all eternity, because we are teaching against that.But wait until you find out what their punishment will be. It will blow you away.John Hagee teaches that if a dove were to take a fine silk scarf, put it in its beak and fly over the Rocky Mountains. As it flies over the mountains it would just caress the top of the granite peak and then fly back the other way and just caress the peaks with this hanky and he would keep switching hankies. That by the time he would wear the whole Rocky chain of mountains from Mexico to Canada into a valley, your punishment in hell had not even yet started compared to eternity. So this man has thought about it. 

You won’t believe what his punishment is going to be. I could hardly believe it, but you’re going to learn that God is just. I mean He is so dead on, there’s nothing arbitrary about what and how God does things. You can’t say, well aren’t you punishing this person a little too much and this one not as much. I mean, I would think for what he did he should… etc.

[Rocco]

Ray seemed to imply a very specific punishment for these preachers but I not found a specific answer. I did think about Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

[ZekeSr]

I don't know how much this applies, but I have pondered it on many previous occasions and it may hint at the answer. Even Paul, after his conversion, (gladly) suffered many of the very same indignities that, before his conversion, he condoned and inflicted on Christians. Even though, at that time, he believed he was doing good. How much more will these shysters have to suffer if they have thought about it and actually know better.... or perhaps worse yet.... revel in the thought?

Mike

[Wanda]

Ray is telling us we won't believe it, because their sin is so great in the eyes of God ,  that we're expecting the punishment to fit the crime, but are our sins any less offensive?

The answer is in his teaching on Repentance and Guilty of all, if you read the transcript, from...

HELL IS THE ULTIMATE BLASPHEMY
To the end of the transcript,  he leaves no question as to their punishment.                       

GUILTY OF ALL

What I want you to see today is, that you are no better than this Hansan guy [when the audio began Ray was already talking about this guy] who killed and raped these little children. You're no better. Now I know you didn’t do it, but you are no better. That might be hard to believe, but I am going to try and show it to you.

You know the scripture.

1Cor 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Well, we go to Matt. 7 and we read this, “judge not.” 

Mat 7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Is that a contradiction? “Know ye not that we shall judge the world and judge angels?”  “Judge not.”  Jesus Christ says.

John 8:15, I judge no man. 

He is the righteous judge of the world, but “I judge no man.”  And in John 12;

John 12:46  I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes on Me should not remain in darkness.
v. 47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Well, how’s He going to judge the world if He says, I don’t judge any man? I didn’t come to judge the world... and you should judge not. How does that fit? Does anybody have any ideas, are these contradictions?  Actually they are not.

As you judge... as you condemn...  That sometimes, the same word can be used with two slightly different connotations. Though judgment can mean to do good and to set right, it can also mean to render a sentence. Whatever you think you're going to render, it could be bad, because there’s always two possible sentences to be rendered. Innocent and guilty, right? Judgment means to render a sentence. It has no bias as to which way it renders the sentence, it just means to render a sentence. It could be guilty and it could be innocent. But this verse does not stand alone.


                                THE BEAM THAT IS IN YOUR OWN EYE

Matt 7:1  Judge not, that you may not be judged.
v. 2  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.
v. 3  And why do you behold the mote that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?

CORRUPT MANKIND

Isn’t it easy to condemn this Hansan guy for killing and raping these little children. Isn’t it easy to almost want to spit in his face. Isn’t it easy.
 
This says, "for you to judge you do the same thing."  Oh come on, I never raped or killed any little children, has any body else here? None of you have done that. But it says...

Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; you judge another you do the same things.
v. 2  But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
v. 3  And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Twice he mentions it, “You judge another you do the same things.” How can this be? I mean come on, I never raped a child, how can this be? Alright let’s go back to chapter 1.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN…

That word "men" means humans, human kind or mankind, you could almost put the human race there.

Rom 1:18 …who by their unrighteousness suppress (means hold back) the truth.
v. 19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Repentance And Guilty Of All...

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

[Wanda]

In the last part of the transcript, Ray  shows the complete sovereignty of our Lord in this matter.

IF YOU BREAK ONE, YOU'RE GUILTY OF ALL!

Now let’s just think about this a little bit. We always thought about this verse on a level about here. You know you break one, you’re guilty of them all. We thought like, 'well I guess if you committed adultery and God said you shouldn’t, so I guess you dishonor God and so you break the first commandment or something like that.'

But does this verse mean what it says, if you break one, you’re guilty of all? Are you ahead of me yet? Do you know where I’m going with this?  Some are figuring it out.

If you break one point of God’s royal Law, you are guilty of all!

Maybe you're going to see something here that you never conceived of before. That is if you break one point of His law... we’re not talking about the spiritual law here. You know how Christ made the law so much higher than Moses' law. One says don’t commit this sin, Christ said don’t even THINK it, okay. Much higher law. If you break one point, your GUILIY of all! Now back to Romans.

Rom. 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

How can Paul say that everybody in here is a child molester and a murderer? How can he say that? Because if you break one point of the law you’re guilty of all!

The only reason we haven’t literally molested little children and cut their head off, is because GOD PREVENTS IT! One scripture says God frames evil (Jer 18:11). You know what it is when you put a frame around something, you know frame it. He frames evil, so it won’t go totally out of control. What appears to be out of control today in the world, is actually framed. God knows how far it’s going. Nothing is out of control.


So don’t take credit for the fact that you didn’t molest children and kill them. You weren’t lead down that evil alley. You weren’t born into the family that would cause you to go down that alley. You weren’t always frustrated to the point where you were just hell bent on just doing some evil foul thing like that. God prevented it.

God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels. Some He hardens and some He has mercy on. He has had mercy on everybody in this room. If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things. He has great mercy on your life. Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don’t have very much to repent of. We have to repent of what? "O man," that’s what we have to repent of.

Whatever "O man" is. That’s what we are, because "O man" is Adam. "O man" came out of Adam.  Where did you come from, some place else? We’re all out of Adam. What does Adam do? "Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters" and on and on (Rom 1:29-31). Wow! This is "O man" out of Adam. This is what he does and only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.

[ZekeSr]

Personally, I'm not sitting in judgment. I am well aware of the fact that I am guilty of crucifying Christ and guilty of all. It is one of the reasons why I have frequently pondered Paul's adversity. It makes me wonder: What is the suffering that will I need to endure in this age or the next. There was a time when I thought sure I would be among the chosen. How pathetic I was to even entertain the thought. I agonize over the notion that I once saw myself as "not such a bad person compared to most." Now, I only hope for mercy. No one knows if they are among the chosen until that day. But that does not change the fact that we can recognize blatant iniquities among those who claim to be shepherds. Perhaps I did not get that across properly. And I do realize that we have to be very very very careful with this subject. And perhaps it should be dropped. But you must also remember that Rocco was only working off his curiosity over Ray's comment concerning this.

Mike

[Wanda]

Personally, I'm not sitting in judgment. I am well aware of the fact that I am guilty of crucifying Christ and guilty of all. It is one of the reasons why I have frequently pondered Paul's adversity. It makes me wonder: What is the suffering that will I need to endure in this age or the next. There was a time when I thought sure I would be among the chosen. How pathetic I was to even entertain the thought. I agonize over the notion that I once saw myself as "not such a bad person compared to most." Now, I only hope for mercy. No one knows if they are among the chosen until that day. But that does not change the fact that we can recognize blatant iniquities among those who claim to be shepherds. Perhaps I did not get that across properly. And I do realize that we have to be very very very careful with this subject. And perhaps it should be dropped. But you must also remember that Rocco was only working off his curiosity over Ray's comment concerning this.

Mike

Mike... I should have worded that differently, so I did edit my post.

I remember the first time I listened to the audio and read the transcript, I too had my curiocity piqued about that same thing, and looked for further information from Ray.

I continued to read the transcript many more times before it became clear to me. Sorry if it sounded like I was being  judgemental, it was not my intention.

In Christ's love

[Dave in Tenn]

Rocco, briefly, I don't think Ray ever made public a specific answer to your question.  I don't think we are left in the dark, however.  We have to put Scripture together.  Others (as well as Ray--thanks, Wanda, for those quotes) provided some.

 

[Rocco]

Thank you all for your comments. So many of the things Ray taught have become clearer to me over the years even though I might have heard him say them a hundred times before and not sense it applicable to me. As I walk with Lord and experience life I began to see things that Ray taught from the scriptures that now make sense and have direct application to me. This life in the Lord is truly a lifelong growth and maturity in Grace. Ray's legacy of teaching the truth lives on, thanks to modern technology. I'm sure he will be amazed in the kingdom age to see the impact of his work that continued well after his death.
In Christ
Rocky Hyde
PS If any of like minded brothers/sisters are ever in Sacramento, Ca look me up

[ZekeSr]

Wanda,

I don't think you should feel sorry in any way for what you wrote. In retrospect, I can see we were looking at two different sides of a coin. And I think it was rather impolite of me not to acknowledge the wisdom (and warning) contained within the Scripture you took the time and effort to assemble.

Mike

[Dennis Vogel]

Comments written in all sincerity are always welcome. It's okay if a post is shown to be in error. That's part of the purpose of this forum.

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

[Musterseed]

Thankyou Wanda and everyone here.
I read Repentance and Guilty of All again and have been humbled about judging others.

Remember always as we attempt to enlighten those who He is calling ,that we are NO BETTER
than those whose doctrines we condem. God loves and died for these heretics of the modern church. They are precious to God and they had better be precious to us,or we to will a great
condemnation for feeling anything but LOVE TOWARD THEM! They may be in fact our enemies
but God entrusts us to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.    L Ray Smith

Rom.2:1
You, therefore,have no excuse,you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever point
you judge another , you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things.

Thank God for His mercy.  In Christ Pamela
Dennis, Thankyou for that scripture. I only now just learned what it means.🙂

[Wanda]

Wanda,

I don't think you should feel sorry in any way for what you wrote. In retrospect, I can see we were looking at two different sides of a coin. And I think it was rather impolite of me not to acknowledge the wisdom (and warning) contained within the Scripture you took the time and effort to assemble.

Mike

Thank you for your heart felt words Mike☺, but I was not in the least bit offended by your response. It prompted me to take another look at my post, and see how it might still leave questions for others.

1 Peter 3:8
To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;

Proverbs 22:11
“He who loves a pure heart and whose speech is gracious will have the king for his friend.”

In Christ's love

Wanda

[Kenneth]

Found this from the paper "you hypocrites, you fools, you snakes:

"True Believers are cheerful, generous givers, not coerced and threatened tithe payers. "Christian Tithing" is a "Christian Hoax" that stinks to high heaven, and those who pronounce curses on people for not tithing will have curses pronounced on them in the Great White Throne/Lake of Fire/Second Death Judgment."
Hope this sheds more light on the matter.

[indianabob]

Perhaps the fate of these who taught from authority a terrifying description of God will receive a fate similar to Judas Iscariot.
Wasn't Judas' accusation and identification of Lord Jesus necessary and always in the plan of God?
Someone had to fulfill prophesy...

So how will we evaluate or judge Judas?
Look in the mirror.
The answer will enlighten you.

[Kenneth]

I believe that the punishment or rather the chastisement of these preachers of "eternal torment" will be a trillion times more lenient and merciful than their heretical doctrine of everlasting punishment in hellfire. I was once one of them,  but I now rejoice every moment of the day  for being set free from this diabolical teaching. I would not have such a love for these deceived teachers, had it not being for God's intervention. Eternal conscious torment is an awful teaching and I cannot believe that I worshipped such a sadistic and meciless god.

[Wanda]

First we're shocked, then we get angry, then we get smartly humbled☺

[zander]

An interesting topic.

I am quite a persistent user of twitter, exposing the crimes of our governments.  You get really carried away with it and the obvious lies governments speak.  I call people out for their stupidity who are believing the mendacious media, without question.  The media is their God.

But sometimes I do think - should I be doing this?  Should I be less sarcastic?  Should I be more approachable with my criticism?  or should I just come off Twitter completely?

I am passionate about exposing the lies this world is so full of.  And yet I know I probably should not be doing it.

ANd so what is my punishment?  Interesting one to mull over.