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Author Topic: Unusual Question About Resurrection  (Read 432 times)

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Wanda

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Unusual Question About Resurrection
« on: January 29, 2019, 04:06:21 PM »


A thought occurred to me. People who die today and are revived by medical intervention, could we consider this a type of resurrection?

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indianabob

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2019, 06:22:46 PM »

Hi Wanda,.

I think we would term that a "healing" as in the heart began pumping again without assistance from any artificial means.
A resurrection would require a whole new body, every molecule brand new if it is mortal and every spiritual part if it is immortal or undying.

Love to hear from the experts.
Indianabob
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ZekeSr

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2019, 06:39:17 PM »

Hi Wanda,

It depends on how you first look at the definition of the word dead.

Clinically dead:
"As far as can be ascertained by a clinical examination the patient is dead. There is no pulse, no respiratory movement and no corneal reflex."
But that does not mean they were truly dead if they are revived.

Then, consider the several definitions of the word resurrection.
Resurrection:
1.
a.  The act of restoring a dead person, for example, to life.
b.  The condition of having been restored to life.

2.  Resurrection Christianity
a.  The return of Jesus to life on the third day after the Crucifixion.
b.  The restoration of the dead to life at the Last Judgment.

3.  The act of bringing back to practice, notice, use, or vibrancy; revival: the resurrection of an old custom; the resurrection of a decrepit neighborhood.

Personally, I would say it is closer to number 3 when speaking medically.

Mike
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Wanda

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 09:05:35 PM »

Thanks Bob and Mike.

What made me think of it in terms of resurrection, was if no one had intervened the person would have died, but giving it some thought, I realized it was God's will there was an intervention and it was not that person's time to die.

Everything that happens is for his glory and nothing happens unless he wills it so.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Johnny70

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 01:00:37 AM »

Hi Wanda,
This is a great question for all of us to put their thinking cap on and examine what is required to create or engender a resurrection. The Bible says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 146:4) Therefore, when we die, we cease to exist. The dead can’t think, act, or feel anything. “To dust you will return”,God explained what happens when we die when he spoke to the first man, Adam. Because Adam was disobedient, God said to him: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) Before God created Adam “out of dust from the ground,” Adam did not exist. (Genesis 2:7) Likewise, when Adam died, he returned to dust and ceased to exist.
The same thing happens to those who die now. Speaking of both humans and animals, the Bible says: “They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.”​—Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20.

I have no medical background but to me there is a very rapid pejorative deterioration when a human's blood is no longer circulating in their body and the lungs no longer have the capacity to supply the blood with oxygen. The time line likely varies but I understand that brain cells begin to die around 4 minutes and after 10 minutes an irretrievable condition is achieved (unless it is a special case such as hyperthermia which could add up to an hour).

But the subject here is - what is required for a successful resurrection where a human can live again? And Bob mentioned that every molecule would have to be made new again. The longer a person is dead the deterioration would be accelerated and very soon go way beyond what medical science could achieve in a restoration attempt. So would it be fair and safe to say that a human body would not have to reach a dust like state to require a God like regeneration. There are many examples in the Bible of people being supernaturally revived after being dead for varying lengths of time. So my question here - is at what point after a person dies and is brought back to life by God (even if only a hour plus after dying) does it qualify as a resurrection - in a legitimate Biblical definition or sense of the term?

John
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ZekeSr

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 09:35:22 AM »

Jas 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Ecc 12:7  then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

People who have been medically dead and revived did not yet have their spirit leave the body. I believe they were not truly dead.

Mike
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Johnny70

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 03:22:33 PM »

Hi Mike,
Yes you are right. The same is true of animals - your dog or cat, Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 18 Concerning people, I said to myself, “God is testing them, so that they will see that by themselves they are just animals. 19 After all, the same things that happen to people happen to animals, the very same thing — just as the one dies, so does the other. Yes, their breath is the same; so that humans are no better than animals; since nothing matters, anyway. 20 They all go to the same place; they all come from dust, and they all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of a human being goes upward and the spirit of an animal goes downward into the earth?”

This spirit could be extended to insects and even plants IMO. The SPIRIT seems to be a life force or energy - and modern science thinks that everything is just a dance of energy. God takes credit for all this - of course. Even the base elements are descrete packets of energy. The energy or force looks like it works in conformity with the human body. Very complicated, indeed.

John
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Wanda

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 04:27:21 PM »

Quote
So my question here - is at what point after a person dies and is brought back to life by God (even if only a hour plus after dying) does it qualify as a resurrection - in a legitimate Biblical definition or sense of the term?

John - from what I've learned since posting the question, according to medical science, a person is not clinically dead until all brain activity and function has ceased. Even then, it's not conclusive, because of cases where people have been put on life support, later taken off and could breath on their own, often living for years in a comatose state.

There are others who have come out of their comas, who were diagnosed clinically dead, so I would agree with both Mike and Bob, that in situations of medical intervention, these can not be classified as literal deaths, where the spirit has returned to God.

To answer your question, at what point would it qualify as a resurrection.  There is a process that occures  after death, that are the traditional  five stages of  decomposition, and IMO,  you would only need to consider stage one as a qualifier for resurrection, which is Initial Decay - Bacteria located mainly in the lower intestine begin decomposition, giving a greenish color to the lower abdomen.

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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 05:07:12 PM »

Yes John, God is the life giver of all living  things.

Job 12:10

In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

No medical intervention can change what God has already purposed are the days of a persons life.

Job 14: 5

A person’s days are determined;
    you have decreed the number of his months
    and have set limits he cannot exceed.

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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Johnny70

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 08:10:50 PM »

Hi Mike,
Sorry Mike, I thought when you said, "MEDICALLY DEAD" that you meant, "CLINICALLY DEAD". Because as you say - when you are clinically dead is the medical term applied for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain human and many other organisms' lives. It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest.

I believe that absolutely no one can live without blood circulation and without breathing (the intake of oxygen). If those two process are not active the person will be dead very soon. And if the person pops up alive at some point - say a few hours later, the next day (which does happen) then it is simply a miss diagnosis's and the person was not clinically dead.
John
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Prune Soleiado

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 10:50:00 AM »

Hello BT Family 👋

I read there are 7 bugs squads that partake in the decomposition process, each squad intervening at their own appointed moment during a 2-3 years period of time. Until the corpse is transformed to dust, or should I say « return » to dust?

Love In Christ

Michelle
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 11:07:50 AM by Prune Soleiado »
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Prune Soleiado

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 11:05:12 AM »

Aaand the rigor mortem always starts by the jaw and the neck (« outstretched neck » in Psalm 75:5 ?)🤔 and finishs its course in the bigger muscles such as legs.
Then comes putrefaction which first appears in the belly, intestines home of a loooot of bacteria ready to participate actively to the destruction of the body. So it comes also from inside of us. Something that eats us without our consent but no way to change this by ourselves.
Thank you Jesus our Savior.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 11:08:32 AM by Prune Soleiado »
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Prune Soleiado

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 01:34:25 PM »

1John 3:14 « We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. »
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indianabob

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 11:26:41 PM »

1John 3:14 « We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. »

Righto, Prune,
We know whether we are chosen because our love for God grows deeper with passing time AND we know because at the same time we find that we can forgive more and more easily the lack of love in others. It just seems that offenses no longer matter as much as they once did. That is one proof that God is changing us to become a little more like His son. It will be a great day for us when God finishes the job and we see the Lord Jesus as he is, because we will be like him... :)
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Johnny70

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 12:05:35 AM »

Prune & Bob,
That is deep spiritual stuff! Great way in which you can perform a self diagnosis - like to check for a pulse or breathing.
John
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ZekeSr

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Re: Unusual Question About Resurrection
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 04:31:43 PM »

I thought twice about interjecting what I’m about to say, but, for the purpose of illustration, I believe it to be pertinent to the original question. About 30 years ago, I was a maintenance man in a fairly large YMCA that had rental rooms on one of the upper floors. On a Monday morning, I was asked to go upstairs and track down a foul odor. To make a long story short, I had the hapless mission of locating an individual who had hung himself in the closet of his room. It was determined that he had most likely accomplished his grisly task on Friday night. So, it was not quite three days. And yet, the process of decomposition had already taken him to the point where I did not recognize this person—a person with whom I was quite familiar. Even though I knew whose room it was, I thought it was someone I did not know.
That experience, and this discussion, has made me think about the raising of Lazarus from the dead after four days. I can only imagine his condition. There is even mention of the stench. The act of Jesus raising a rotting Lazarus back to mortal life and health was a true miracle of resurrection. There is nothing in medicine that can even be compared.

Mike
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