2 Gospels - A Comment

[ML]

I disagree with the 2 "Gospel" doctrine, but interesting to note. Some say only listen to Jesus and throw out Paul, some say only listen to Paul and throw out Jesus, or say for some reason Jesus doesn't apply to us. A lot of focus on that physical aspect, instead of being one in the body of Christ.

It seems especially that those who come to believe UR are especially pulled into these doctrines.

[Prune Soleiado]

Hello ML 👋

1 Corinthians 3:4-6:
« For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but GOD has been making it grow. »

Whatever they believe, God makes them believe this.
But whoever is given an ear to hear and an eye to recognize the Word Of God, JESUS, won't follow those false doctrines and prophets.

God Our Father be glorified 🙏

[Dave in Tenn]

Some are just enamored with "theology" to the point that they can't read scripture except to see it as a theological treatise.

Ray's most thorough direct teaching on the subject is here:

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

But that carries through to many of the other papers, etc.  I'm glad I didn't "come to believe UR", but to believe in Jesus.  Paul's "conversion" is as a pattern that I did not set out to follow, but happened just the same.

[Dennis Vogel]

Do James and Paul Contradict? Parts one and two:

https://youtu.be/dpnFpde69I4

https://youtu.be/EcryObkrBOQ

[Dave in Tenn]

Been thinking about this much of the day, and want to share a bit of my heart.  Take it for what it's worth, and not for "doctrine".

You said, "It seems especially that those who come to believe UR are especially pulled into these doctrines."  To me, this is part of the reason why I don't think the "end" is extremely close.  I don't believe this generation of "believers in the Name of the Son of God" are yet equipped for the work we are being raised for.  And I think it's for the same reason Paul wrote to the Corinthians--because we are yet carnal.  "We" seem to be more interested in theories and prognostications and dry theology and less interested in obeying the Gospel.  I don't have a passive disinterest in eschatology.  I have more an active aversion to it.  I don't know for sure, but that seems likely to last until I die.  Yet, I love His appearing.  Make of that what you will.

I think in my heart that "the end" is going to be quite a bit different than what most imagine.  He has warned me off of my own "wrath" and exercising my own "vengeance", and the reasons for that are in the same statements telling me what not to do.  At the very least, His wrath and indignation are of a greater degree and efficacy than mine, but I can't help but believe they are also of a different character.  I've studied the "word", and it's pretty telling what it really means.  I don't doubt His power or wisdom, but when I look at the commandments He's given to His disciples, the parables, even the example of the sword-wielding Peter in the Garden, I think His ways are going to be proven to be beyond our ways, and His thoughts beyond our thoughts. 

As a practical person believing in the salvation of all, I want to know what works.  And so far, I am just beginning to see it...largely because it hasn't completely worked in me yet.  If the last are going to be first, then perhaps the last need to be better attuned to the Spiritual ways of God than this generation is.  He will complete what He started, and there is a place prepared for us all, but He is the Lord.

I don't know "when" any more than anybody else.  The same "place" that produces (even demands) that humility is the same "place" that allows me the boldness to say that nobody else does either.  I don't claim to be "right", but I'd rather think on these things than play with my Bible.

 

 

[indianabob]

Friend Dave in Tenn,

Thanks for sharing your heart, much appreciated and helpful to understand the inner man a little better.
I have a couple of items from my heart also. Things that I cannot prove, but have come to understand from reading the whole Bible.

re: we who seem to believe:
I don't think we need to be equipped or well prepared for the work ahead. That to me is the difference with gentiles compared to Israelites in the law.
Paul called folks in whom the spirit of God already dwelt, compared to Jews who grew up with the expectation of a calling when Lord Jesus returned as promised.
When Paul taught his gospel to gentiles only those whom God had drawn to Himself with an earnest of His spirit were able to respond and follow through.
There were no pre-qualifications as far as they knew. just a growing belief in what they were hearing.
Of course once they were imbued with God's spirit and heard the "word" preached they were expected to grow in grace and knowledge.
If that is possibly correct, then it seems to follow that God is able to finish the work of equipping us to do what is required in the Kingdom through His own power, either instantly or in a very short time once we have spirit existence and perfect, complete spirit minds and attitudes.

= =

Of course there is always room  for improvement and coming to understand the "meat" of God's work and not to be stuck rehearsing the "milk" of God's word continually.
But all do not have the gifts that would make them leaders and yet God will include them because God has chosen them before hand to show His great power.
In the end it is not so much about knowledge or accomplishments, even with God doing the work in us. It is mostly about acquiring the gift of humility and trust in God.
= =
In Luke 7:28: "For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."  He ministered in the transition period as he was the one privileged to introduce Israel's Messiah to the people. Yet Jesus says everyone who serves will be greater than John.

Look at Paul's attitude, as an apostle: "For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."(1 Cor.15:9).

If one humbles himself and is willing to be a servant to others they will be considered great in the kingdom.

[Dave in Tenn]

You are right, Bob, about the "qualifications" required...these are not the world's qualifications at all.  Those "qualifications" accrue to every saint regardless of their heritage.  Doesn't change my mind about this generation, however, or make me less hopeful for the future.

Paul himself offered the olive branch to those who differed with him on certain things...but not all things.  I find myself doing the same when encountering "teaching" like what prompted the OP.  And the attempt to read Rays' paper I linked just gives me a headache.  For example, on topic, I've encountered guys with bibles who disagree on where to "rightly divide" the word of truth...yet neither one has a clue what "rightly divide" even means!  And this doesn't include myriad pet doctrines or fascinations that seem to some people to take up their entire "spiritual" lives.  They may think it's "meat" not milk.  I think it's trivial pursuit.  Usually, I've found myself being happy when wrong...I don't think that'd be the case here.

It's pretty clear to me from the parables and elsewhere that understanding is not equally distributed.  There must be a good reason for this.  Maybe it's to keep us all on our toes and to focus those who will on what's important.  And maybe it's more stuff to "overcome".

I'm glad Dennis posted the other links.  Those articles my mind and heart can handle.

[Wanda]

Thanks for your hearfelt words Dave.

Bob, your comment gave me more to think on, thanks.

I very much agree that the end is not what many are expecting. It's something I was shown after the most difficult time I've experienced thus far. It was a time when love was in short supply, and doubt was in abundance. It all culminated in a great humbling and new understanding of what the love of God truly means. It's been almost two years, and I'm still in awe from having had such an experience.

Personally I rebel against all labels assigned to the worship of God, UR included. For me, what makes perfect sense is a winning combination and balance,  of both spirit and truth,  thus eliminating all the confusion that doctrines  of men offer. A slow and painfull road to nowhere.

Recalling something I read somewhere, paraphrasing, - Christians are taught Jesus is coming back soon, and boy is he mad.! We're all afflicted  with Jonathan Edwards' "Angry God" Syndrome,, which in my opinion is in complete opposition to the God of love I have come to know,  and is the love manifested in our great teacher and example, Jesus Christ.

Jesus came in peace not to destroy men, but to save them. He came wielding the sword of truth and spirit of God's word and not a physical sword. Therefore  I can't reconcile anything but a belief that the divine judgments that are coming upon the earth are meant to restore all things, not to destroy all things. The law destroys the sin, not the sinner, and the law's judgments destroy the sin from the earth, rather than destroying the earth itself. There's a whole lot of words in the book that attest to this truth,  from what I've been given to understand.

I think on Gods Glory and how he best sees himself being glorified in the end of this age and the ages to come, and it settles the issue for me.

In the past my bouts of preoccupation with end times was due to my fear of it, born of ignorance. Now my thoughts of it are not a preoccupation of any degree of importance. Although I believe I'm living in a time of great importance, just what that means is still illusive to me. Besides, I've always felt that way., and often wondered if anyone else did.

Honestly, I do wish I could live until the end of this age, because I know it's going to be extraordinarily magnificent, and I have no fear or reservations of it being otherwise.

[ML]

Although I believe I'm living in a time of great importance, just what that means is still illusive to me. Besides, I've always felt that way., and often wondered if anyone else did.

I have been feeling that way for a while as well.

So Wanda, how do you think the end of the age will occur? And what do you think the great important event(s) are?

I'm actually getting quite tired of most doctrine and theology talk. I'm trying to focus more on love, even though I read some theology related things here and there. I wish people's first question in religious discussions wasn't "what is your theology" but "how has Jesus worked in your life?"

[Wanda]

So Wanda, how do you think the end of the age will occur? And what do you think the great important event(s) are.

Now if I tell you that I'll have to kill you. 
After all that's the best kept secret in the history of the world.

Seriously though, the first part of your question would require a Divine revelation, and the second part would be considered teaching,  which is against the rules of the forum.

I will say, we all know the fall of Babylon must occur prior to Christs return, and there are also a few significant prophesies yet to be fullfilled as well. Let's just say I do not see total destruction in Gods plan, as he knows the very best way to accomplish the very best outcome. . I don't see how that would bring glory to his name, and we know everything he does is to his glory. Anything else leaves us with many scriptural contradictions.

[John from Kentucky]

None of us know if we will be alive the next second.

Therefore the end is near to all of us.

[Heidi]

Therefore the end is near to all of us.

Amen to that......for to me to live [is] Christ, and to die gain.
Philippians:1:21

Heidi