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Author Topic: Does Having No Free Will Mean?  (Read 3392 times)

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Wanda

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Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« on: September 04, 2019, 04:02:56 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?
Does this fall into the category of relying on God in all things without any effort on our parts? 
Does God really expect us to make no decisions because he makes all of them for us?
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

lareli

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 05:12:47 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?
Does this fall into the category of relying on God in all things without any effort on our parts? 
Does God really expect us to make no decisions because he makes all of them for us?

God does not make decisions for us. I make my decisions and I use my will to do this or to do that. And I’ll be held accountable for how I use my will. I’ll also be held accountable for how I failed to use my will.

The parable of the talents comes to mind.
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Rocco

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 11:47:37 PM »

Choices/Decisions are not will but responses to causes. As far as will goes I think we should see it not as free will but captive will.  Before we are converted we are in darkness and held captive:
 Pro 5:22
An evil man is held captive by his own sins;
they are ropes that catch and hold him.
 Act 8:23
for I can see that you are full of bitter jealousy and are held captive by sin.”
2Ti 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
The illusion of free will is strong ,but we know that it is only in Christ that we are set free and are given the mind of Christ. it's a lifelong process that we join as one with Christ and his will becomes ours. I think the dumb decisions we continue to make are  Gods plan in burning away all that remains of the flesh that we may walk in the spirit with joyful unity with our father and elder brother.
 Rom 7:6
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2019, 04:03:24 AM »

Well put, Rocco.

This bit of scripture came to mind thinking about your question.  "We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?"

1Ti 5:23  Drink no longer only water, but use a little wine on account of thy stomach and thy frequent illnesses.

Ray said that no-one can begin to understand the deeper things of God until he begins to be obedient.  I don't think, for example, that anyone with no desire/will, and no effort to "do (accomplish) good" can understand Romans 7 except in some abstract and often warped theological sense.

That said, be mindful of your motives.  Those will determine the intermediate outcome more-so than your will/plans.  We have no genuine control of our "motives".  Saul/Paul was "perfect according to the Law" and the "Chiefest of sinners" at the same time.  This info is not for minors and it takes the grace of God to give us everything we really and permanently (and thus, spiritually) need.  Once it begins, we can "exercise" it, but we cannot will it into existence, nor set the course or end of His work in us.  We are HIS workmanship, even though we do "work".   
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 04:36:47 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lareli

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 05:50:01 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?


Whats the difference between us doing it and God doing it
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 07:59:13 PM »

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of a horse, the rider was lost.
For want of a rider, the battle was lost.
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Benjamin Franklin

Even the smallest details can have extraordinary consequences.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God has a plan and even small details could alter His plan. But that's not allowed.

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God planned the end from the beginning. You cannot go against that plan. You have no free will.
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Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 03:43:12 PM »

Thanks for all the helpful replies everyone. I do not believe  anyone  has free will, and what will we do have is often in opposition to God's  will.  I can easily understand the chaos that would result if our will could over power God's will in our lives. I've seen this in the lives of family and friends when they allow their young children to decide what they want to do, regardless of the harm that does to the children and the family. I consider myself  a young Child in this physical life and like a child I need direction and guidance to develop  emotional and spiritual maturity.

Since learning no one has free will, and knowing God knows the end from the beginning,  I would have been the very best  parent my children could ever have,  if I had that same ability. I could have prevented any harmful influences in their lives.  Our Heavenly Father is the very best parent we could ever have,  and we are blessed he is in control of every detail of our lives. As a parent this was all I ever wanted for my children, but God has planned something far greater than all my hopes and dreams could have ever accomplished.
Jeremiah 29:11(NIV)
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 03:47:05 PM »

Quote
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?"

1Ti 5:23  Drink no longer only water, but use a little wine on account of thy stomach and thy frequent illnesses.

Yes Dave, this was in line with what I had in mind. Thank you.

Quote
That said, be mindful of your motives.  Those will determine the intermediate outcome more-so than your will/plans.  We have no genuine control of our "motives".

Yes, our motives are most important.

Proverbs 16

2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them,
    but motives are weighed by the Lord.

3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
    and he will establish your plans.
 
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 04:05:31 PM »

Quote
Choices/Decisions are not will but responses to causes. As far as will goes I think we should see it not as free will but captive will.  Before we are converted we are in darkness and held captive:
 Pro 5:22
An evil man is held captive by his own sins;
they are ropes that catch and hold him.
 Act 8:23
for I can see that you are full of bitter jealousy and are held captive by sin.”
2Ti 2:26
and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
The illusion of free will is strong ,but we know that it is only in Christ that we are set free and are given the mind of Christ. it's a lifelong process that we join as one with Christ and his will becomes ours. I think the dumb decisions we continue to make are  Gods plan in burning away all that remains of the flesh that we may walk in the spirit with joyful unity with our father and elder brother.

Thank you Rocco!  Words of great truth.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 05:05:25 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?


Whats the difference between us doing it and God doing it

There is no difference, if we consider even our desire to improve on something is influenced by God.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 05:08:14 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?
Does this fall into the category of relying on God in all things without any effort on our parts? 
Does God really expect us to make no decisions because he makes all of them for us?

God does not make decisions for us. I make my decisions and I use my will to do this or to do that. And I’ll be held accountable for how I use my will. I’ll also be held accountable for how I failed to use my will.

The parable of the talents comes to mind.

But are your decisions based on only your will or are they determined by outside influence?
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

lareli

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 05:18:38 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?


Whats the difference between us doing it and God doing it

There is no difference, if we consider even our desire to improve on something is influenced by God.

So then if I neglect to improve on something in my life and instead I wait for God to do it, aren’t I just waiting on myself to do it?
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Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2019, 05:51:38 PM »


Quote
So then if I neglect to improve on something in my life and instead I wait for God to do it, aren’t I just waiting on myself to do it?

Lareli,

I don't believe there is any question we could ask or any  answer we could give, that would not involve God's influence in some way. Everything comes back to Gods will in everything regardless of our own will, thoughts, choices and decisions. My answer would be no, I wouldn't be waiting on myself because God always has the final say. As Dave said, be mindful of your motives, but we don't have control of our motives either.

When I posted this, I didn't realize I was exerting  my own will to somehow circumvent God's will in this matter, but he knew that and inspired me to post my questions so he could show me where my thinking was wrong.  Just one more example of how God's will is always working for our good,  even when our will is often in opposition.
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Rocco

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2019, 12:21:27 AM »

This may be a little off topic, maybe not. Because I get to drive long distances in my job I have a lot of time to listen to youtube and podcasts. I get to listen to Ray's talks over and over but have also been really fascinated with what these (mostly atheist) quantum physicist are discovering about the nature of reality. Things like collapsing wave function and the dual nature of light as a particle and a wave, but the thing that really caught my attention was that they think that all the universe is an energy field that consist of every possibility of reality and only materializes when measured or observed. Wow!
 Pro 15:3
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

 Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'

Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Hang On Buckle Up enjoy the ride folks Next stop Paradise

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Prune Soleiado

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2019, 12:11:24 PM »

You’re exactly on the straight right (milky 😁) way, Brother Rocco!
Amen 🙏❤️
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Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2019, 06:00:03 PM »

Quote
Hang On Buckle Up enjoy the ride folks Next stop Paradise

Thanks Rocco, I needed a bit of cheering up.☺

1 Corinthians 2:9. "But, as it is written, 'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him'—"
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

lareli

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2019, 01:15:01 PM »

Does having no free will mean
We should never try to improve on something in our lives, and instead wait for God to do it or not do it for us?


Whats the difference between us doing it and God doing it

There is no difference, if we consider even our desire to improve on something is influenced by God.

So then if there is no difference between us doing it or God doing it, then isn’t the question just “should I improve my life?”....

Why shouldn’t I? Not only why shouldn’t I, but won’t I be judged for not fixing something in my life if I have the power to fix it? 
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Wanda

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2019, 08:23:07 PM »

Quote
Why shouldn't I? Not only why shouldn't I, but won't I be judged for not fixing something in my life if I have the power to fix it?

If we could correct something and didn't, that would indicate a problem with obeying I think. Not being obedient to God's will would result in  a negative outcome, which would be God's intended purpose for correction.

Through the obedience of the One shall all the many be made righteous.... Know ye not that ye are servants of obedience unto righteousness?' -- Rom.5:19; 6:16.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 08:50:44 PM by Wanda »
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I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but have the light of life.
                                     John 8:12

Rocco

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2019, 11:59:16 PM »

You mind if I rant? This helps me to write things out to get renewal of mind. The carnal mind cannot obey, we will not obey unless the Father grabs us by the scruff of the neck and drags us to Christ. Its a gift not a reward so we should always renounce the temptation to think we are chosen because we deserve it, we certainly are no better than these God hating, blasphemous infidels that we see everyday. God will judge them, we must love them in wisdom and humility. Being a part of the firstfruits is a burden the world knows nothing about and forgive me but sometimes I envy them for their ignorance. We have been brought to the Lord and forgetting whats behind we press forward. Paul said if there is no resurrection we (chosen) of all people are to be most pitied. Amen to that.

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

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indianabob

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Re: Does Having No Free Will Mean?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2019, 05:05:22 PM »

Hi Rocco,

Another good point to consider, thanks.

Also note that Paul was questioning whether they even believed in a resurrection.

I find today that many if not most "christian churches" do not emphasize a resurrection, believing rather that they go directly into the presence of God if they have lived a righteous life.
Without a resurrection much of the truth of Paul's teaching falls by the wayside. Why do we need to be resurrected they say?

Indiana Bob
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