Forgiveness

[Doug]

Just in the news about the women police officer going into what she thought was her apartment but instead went into a neighbors apartment and shot him thinking him to be an intruder.

At trial the victims brother asked to hug the police officer and gave her a bible and said he forgave her. Found it very inspiring. The women was very moved by this gentleman's act.

Doug

[Dennis Vogel]

Yes, but she got 10 years in jail as I recall Doug.

[octoberose]

Yes, she got ten years but that doesn't diminish her victims brother both forgiving her and declaring God as the reason he can forgive.  Sometimes the news isn't all terrible. 

[Doug]

It was actually the judge who gave her the bible not the victims brother. Yes, the point is that the brother of the victim forgave and hugged her out of his faith. She was still responsible and showed remorse which I think factored into a light sentence of 10 years given the nature of the crime.

[Dave in Tenn]

The Lord knows the heart. 

I heard a similar, but much deeper story on an NPR non-news program recently.  The father of a brutally murdered adult daughter publicly forgave her killer, then eventually began a correspondence and "friendship" with him that continues to this day.  It's heartening to see small glimpses of Gospel even in this wicked age. 

   

[Wanda]

Thanks for sharing this Doug. Love in action is a beautiful thing to see.

[arion]

And the judge herself might of not had much leeway when it came to sentencing.  Sentencing guidelines for the specific crime the defendant was convicted of tend to restrict the sentencing options.  I saw the video of the encounter and even the judge herself was crying in the background and dabbing her eyes when the young man reached out to the woman who killed her brother.  Was very refreshing to see for sure. 

[indianabob]

I don't know all of the facts of the case. So this is just speculation meant to inform.

In O.T. scripture there are Cities of Refuge for people accused of killing by accident or misfortune.
The purpose was/is to prevent wide spread blood revenge killing by relatives etc. and to remove the accused
from local society as protection from further hateful acts by members of that society.

If this woman was fully innocent of unlawful intent, why punish her by confinement at all?
Perhaps it is done in our society to placate the relatives and prevent revenge as well as hoping to prevent other careless or accidental acts by others in society who, seeing her punishment, will be more careful to avoid consequences of careless acts.

A non related illustration might be confinement for "users" of illegal drugs after a third offense.
The result of which is to punish an addiction or illness with the hope that the individual will learn self control in prison.

Comments are welcome, Indiana Bob

[lareli]

I don't know all of the facts of the case. So this is just speculation meant to inform.

In O.T. scripture there are Cities of Refuge for people accused of killing by accident or misfortune.
The purpose was/is to prevent wide spread blood revenge killing by relatives etc. and to remove the accused
from local society as protection from further hateful acts by members of that society.

If this woman was fully innocent of unlawful intent, why punish her by confinement at all?
Perhaps it is done in our society to placate the relatives and prevent revenge as well as hoping to prevent other careless or accidental acts by others in society who, seeing her punishment, will be more careful to avoid consequences of careless acts.

A non related illustration might be confinement for "users" of illegal drugs after a third offense.
The result of which is to punish an addiction or illness with the hope that the individual will learn self control in prison.

Comments are welcome, Indiana Bob

I'm having a hard time tying the two examples together.

You're (non) relating a woman who killed an innocent man with someone who consumes illegal drugs. One of these is a violent act against an innocent person minding his own business. The other is an act of a person minding his own business.. using drugs.

[Wanda]

Lareli,

I'm pretty sure Bob was going on the assumption the women did not kill the man out of a place of malice. I believe many of those in the courtroom felt the same.

As for the guy minding his own business doing drugs, hardcore drug addicts involve everyone they come in contact with. They steal from family members who love and try to help them, and at times even put them in danger. They often turn to crime to support their addiction,  because they can't hold down a job. If your blessed to get an addicted family member into treatment, it seldom works because they either walk out of the treatment center, or return to the same lifestyle when they get out.

As a family member of an addict,  who did all of that and more, the only thing that actually worked was my nephew going to jail for a year. After he was released he turned his life around.

I don't agree we should lock up all people who do drugs, but sometimes it's neccessary when it's the only solution in a seriously broken system. Also, many of the homeless are drug addicts, I don't think they're minding their own business.

[lareli]

Lareli,

I'm pretty sure Bob was going on the assumption the women did not kill the man out of a place of malice. I believe many of those in the courtroom felt the same.

As for the guy minding his own business doing drugs, hardcore drug addicts involve everyone they come in contact with. They steal from family members who love and try to help them, and at times even put them in danger. They often turn to crime to support their addiction,  because they can't hold down a job. If your blessed to get an addicted family member into treatment, it seldom works because they either walk out of the treatment center, or return to the same lifestyle when they get out.

As a family member of an addict,  who did all of that and more, the only thing that actually worked was my nephew going to jail for a year. After he was released he turned his life around.

I don't agree we should lock up all people who do drugs, but sometimes it's neccessary when it's the only solution in a seriously broken system. Also, many of the homeless are drug addicts, I don't think they're minding their own business.

I understand the malice part but malice or not she intentionally killed someone. Her only mistake was in believing she was justified when she was not. But she did intentionally kill a man... (not necessarily saying I think she should go to jail)

What I'm having an issue with is comparing the punishment for a violent act (killing another person) with punishing someone for a nonviolent act (using drugs). Stealing wasn't part of the example Bob used.

[Wanda]

Perhaps it is done in our society to placate the relatives and prevent revenge as well as hoping to prevent other careless or accidental acts by others in society who, seeing her punishment, will be more careful to avoid consequences of careless acts.

A non related illustration might be confinement for "users" of illegal drugs after a third offense.
The result of which is to punish an addiction or illness with the hope that the individual will learn self control in prison.

What I see is a comparison of possible reasons our society punishes such cases by imprisoning people. Not that the crimes are comparable in there severity. In both scenarios Bob gave, each was imprisoned as a possible deterrent,

[indianabob]

friends Lareli and Wanda,
Thank you for pointing out what I should have made clearer in my initial comment.
Lareli is correct that my illustrations were not comparable considering the lack of necessary detail.

Wanda is correct in her assessment of my intent and thanks for that. 

I was hoping to compare the way we administer justice from the human perspective compared to what scripture says God would do...both in the Old Testament economy and the new. More on that and deterrents later if any are interested.

In my own view with only partial information available to the public, the woman police officer likely had been trained to respond in exactly the manner that she did, but with the caveat that she over-reacted out of surprise and fear for her own life rather than in a manner that we incorrectly would expect from a highly trained police officer, as portrayed in the movies.

In the mind of the public, an officer, especially one wearing a "bullet proof" [?] vest should hold back any deadly response until they are fully assured that the threat to themselves is real and deadly before themselves responding with deadly force.
e.g. only return fire after shots have been first fired at you. Not very practical if one expects to enjoy their retirement.

That expectation is to say the least unrealistic and based upon the ignorance of the average member of the public.

Consequently, IF we the public are expecting this type of event to be much less likely, then it would seem to follow that we need to change the system that sends, duty bound police officers into deadly combat with little protection for themselves.
Yes I know that she was off duty, but combat training is ingrained 24/7 or is ineffective and not useful!

If I myself walked into such a situation it is likely that I would turn and run back to a safer position OR would simply freeze and then be subject to whatever assault might come from the supposed intruder. It is my guess that the jury was made aware of several situations such as this for them to consider in their deliberations. The officer made a deadly mistake and the result was the death of an innocent person. However in judgement the public should be concerned mainly with whether there was premeditation or any other unlawful conduct on her part that would make her act reckless rather than a human error.

If the judgment is human error then correct the training and the duty assignment so that it may not happen at a future time. Punishing a person for being afraid or incompetent or just not suited for certain responsibilities is counter productive for the whole of humanity. Part of the solution is to stop expecting police officers to play god or superman and to provide them with ALL the resources we would wish for ourselves were we held to the same standards of conduct.

Isn't this really a societal problem that the police have to contend with, that has come about with our dismissal of God's law from our schools and family life?

Respectfully offered, Indiana Bob

Perhaps it is done in our society to placate the relatives and prevent revenge as well as hoping to prevent other careless or accidental acts by others in society who, seeing her punishment, will be more careful to avoid consequences of careless acts.

A non related illustration might be confinement for "users" of illegal drugs after a third offense.
The result of which is to punish an addiction or illness with the hope that the individual will learn self control in prison.

What I see is a comparison of possible reasons our society punishes such cases by imprisoning people. Not that the crimes are comparable in there severity. In both scenarios Bob gave, each was imprisoned as a possible deterrent,

[Dave in Tenn]

Let's not veer too far off the topic as it was started.  It was started to give a "pictorial" example of how forgiveness changes hearts.  I don't expect the world to adhere to the Spiritual Law.  I don't even expect them to understand it.  But from time to time some tiny glimmer of "example" can be seen in this twisted world that illustrates the Spiritual Law for those with eyes to see it.

Speaking only for myself, I can say with complete certainty that there has been NO change in my "behavior" that wasn't preceded by a change of heart--not by fear, or any other consequence of "deterrence".  I'm going to go on record before God and everybody and state this:  If the Judgments of God (Who IS the Lake of Fire)  are not designed to do, intended to do (or are not capable of doing) something much greater than deterring bad behavior, then I am not interested in judging the world.  I have much higher hopes for ultimate "righteousness" than that.  I'm looking forward to the time when Love (and all the other fruit of the Spirit) reigns unencumbered and completely.  This life (for me) is learning how that works.  The Day is coming when He shall pour out His Spirit on all flesh and it will bear MUCH fruit.

 

[seaofglass]

i am promted to reply

your heart is in the right place Dave.

i know cause all your many past responses indicate this.  this is what i expect to see in those he is working with, not all who know the truths are part of the choosen!  The fruit of their character will tell you who they are, by their fruit you shall know them.

its the small little character flause that sticks out most that tells you about someone. The world is a smorgashburg of confussion so this crime case is carnal world at work.  Stay clear of the world and stay forcus on ourselves and we will be busy for the rest of our lives.

Be blessed

Sea of Glass

[waterfall77]

This is a little off subject, I have wondered about what seaofglass just wrote. Is there a reason why God opens the eyes of some people  to see truth
but those same people are not apart of the chosen ?
                                                                          Aubrey

[Musterseed]

The Old vs. the NEW

John 1:17,,, For the law was given by Moses( the old covenant)
but grace and truth came by Jesus. ( New Covenant)

Luke 5:36-39
And He ( Jesus) spoke unto them a parable unto them ( Pharisees); no man puts a piece of
new garment upon an old; If otherwise, then both the new makes a rent ( tear) and the piece
that was taken out of the new agrees not with the old, not according with the covenant which I made with their fathers ( the old covenant Heb.8:9) And no man puts old wine into new bottles ( wineskins)
; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish( be RUINED).
But new wine must be put into new bottles and both are preserved. No man also having drunk
old wine straight away desires new, for he says " the OLD is better."

This is a parable! Jesus is speaking of the Old and New Covenants . We cannot, we dare not try to put the old with the new.BOTH WILL BE RUINED. Why dont we believe Jesus? We can't put the old and new together. And true to Jesus words , when people come into the knowledge of the New Covenant,
they PREFER THE OLD BETTER.

2 Cor. 5:1,,, Wherefore henceforth know we no man after ( according to ) the flesh; yeah
thought we have known Christ after the flesh , YET NOW HENCEFORTH WE KNOW HIM
NO MORE.( after the flesh)

2 Corth 5:17,, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature( creation) , old
things are passed away; behold,ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW.

This is from LOF pt. 6 , all caps are Rays.

My understanding is we have to leave the Pharisees in the dust. Following the Sermon
On the Mount New Spiritual Laws of Jesus Christ and only possible with Christ dwelling
In us.

Another quote from Ray from the LOF pt. 6,,,,,,," The CHOSEN live by the New Covenant:
The " CALLED"  try to live by the New and Old covenants. They have never learned this
simple lesson."No servant can serve TWO masters.( Luke 16:13) they are not to be unequally yoked together, seeing that they are not equal. If you want to be a New Testament Christian, then you need to learn and know what the New Testament is all about.


Love your enemies
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world, lust of the flesh, lust of
the eyes, pride of life

I am crucified WITH Christ.

These are the spiritual laws of the anew Covenant. They are far superior to the laws
of Moses under the old covenant.

I hope this helps
In Christ, Pamela

[Wanda]

When my nephew went to jail I didnt know God as I do today and ignorantly believed, it had been an effective deterrent. I now know it was only by God's will he didn't return to drugs once he was released. Other experiences of helping ex-offenders, who spent many years locked up, and returned to drugs,  was proof enough to me, locking people up doesn't work.

Seaofglass, and Dave, both your comments are timely for me.  Recently I was meditating on the importance of developing a Christ like love for others. I focused my attention on what being no part of the world really means in our lives. Yes, we are not suppose to do as the world does, but there seemed to be something more I was missing.  It then occured to me,  perhaps it extends to our not even concerning ourselves  with what the world is doing. Maybe that's the secret to developing a Christ like love for others. 

I can't remember where I saw this, but saved it as a daily reminder.

You were created in the image of God, who is love and full of grace. What might happen if you started believing this?

What I find both helpful and necessary, is to focus my attention on all things that glorify God.

As someone thinks within himself, so he is.

Proverbs 23:7

Whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things.

Philippians 4:8

We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:5

Take every thought captive. What a great idea. But is it even possible? Well, if we trusted God's word, we would know it is possible.

The answer to capturing our  thoughts is right there in Scripture, hidden in plain sight. Psalm 46:10 says, "Be still and know that I am God." 

[indianabob]

thanks Pamela,
Very important principle to understand.
We cannot mix or blend the Old covenant of works of the law with the New covenant of grace. We must, as God instructs, operate in one or the other.
One reason for this in my view is that when we mix them we tend to believe that it is our "acceptance" of the gift of the spirit of God in our lives that makes a difference. Therefore taking some credit for a decision on our part when actually the miracle that has brought us into faith or belief was 100% God through his son the Lord Jesus.

Moderators; please correct my phrasing where needed.
Indiana Bob