Gods Elect

[octoberose]

The discussion questions have been pretty quiet lately so I thought I'd start a discussion.😌
   Let's say  that you are talking with someone who is interested in learning about the elect of God and the eventual salvation of all. And let's say it is much easier for you to show Gods grace to all then it is for you to make the case that it's the elect who inherit the Kingdom and that's different then everybody just being transformed to heaven at the same time . What scriptures would you use ?
Sometimes it's nice to go back  to fundamentals  - at least it helps me to make sure I know what I know and can articulate it .
Thanks .

[Heidi]

Recon yourself to be dead in the flesh.

I found this excerpt by Ray from LOF part 16
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, " reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:."

Heidi

[Heidi]

LOF Part 3:
"THE BELIEVER'S JUDGMENT BY FIRE

Well, yes, it does appear that there is a judgment on the house of God, but certainly not a judgment by FIRE, is there? Doesn't God judge non-believers with fire, but not believers? This only sounds strange to you if you have never been taught the Scriptures.

"Beloved, think it NOT STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some STRANGE thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).

Peter makes it sound as though going through fiery trails is the norm rather than the exception. The New Testament is filled with the fiery trials of the Saints.

Now I hope that none will be offended at my next few statements, but if so, so be it. Unless God Almighty through the purging power of His FIERY SPIRIT, is BURNING OUT the lusts and passions and vanity and haughtiness and greed and self-righteousness and laziness and weakness and hypocrisy and wickedness and pride and materialism and cynicism and depravity and carnality in your life, then Jesus Christ is not choosing you to reign with Him as the Sons of God in the Kingdom of God to bring all Heaven and Earth to repentance and salvation!"

Heidi

[Musterseed]

2 Co.9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion
for God loves a cheerful giver.

What are we to cheerfully give?

Rom.12:1
I appeal to you therefore brothers by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living
sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Rom.12;2- Do not be
conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you
may decern what is the will of God. What is good and acceptable and perfect.

1John 2:15
Love not the world neither the things of the world. If any man loves the world, the
love of the Father is not in him, for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the
lust of the eyes and the pride of life is not of the Father but is of the world.

Rom. 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive
so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way in the written code.

1Tim.2:3
This is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God Our Savior.

Sermon on the Mount  , Jesus is saying something totally new. A NEW SPIRITUAL COVENANT.
" BUT I SAY UNTO YOU....................

In Christ
Pamela

[Wanda]

Octoberose, the thought of explaining the remnant class first seems like a huge task to me. I first learned of the salvation of all, and everything fell into place afterward,  but each situation is different, and anything is possible with God. Im, hoping to learn  something more on this subject from others.

I would suggest Romans 11. It talks of the remnant of Israel and the engrafting of the gentiles, which clearly speaks to the grace of God.

Romans 11:5–7

5   In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6   But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7   What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

One thing that dictates how I approach anything involving God, when talking to someone, is love. "God is love", first and foremost, it's the very essence of who he is. everything he does is goverend by that truth. His just and righteous plan for the salvation of all mankind is a witness to that truth. I was myself,  greatly influenced by first knowing this, and everything fell into place afterward.

The following scriptures made me question what I thought I knew, maybe they'll help in your situation. If not, I can share other scripture about the remnant class.

Psalm 66:4,

4 All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name. Selah.

Psalm 67 is magnificent as well:

1 God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us-Selah. 2That Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations. 3 Let the peoples praise Thee, O God; let ALL the peoples praise Thee. 4 Let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth. Selah. 5Let the peoples praise Thee, O God; let all the peoples praise Thee. 6 The earth has yielded its produce; God, our God, blesses us. 7 God blesses us, [in order] thatall the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Psalm 72:11-19

11 And let all kings bow down before him, All nations serve him. . .17 May His Name endure forever; May His Name increase as long as the sunshines; And letmen bless themselves by Him; Let all nations call him blessed. . .18Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wonders. 19 And blessed be His glorious name forever; And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen, and Amen.

Psalm 86:9 and 10

9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and they shall glorify Thy name. 10 For Thou art great and doest wondrous deeds; Thou alone art God.

When God's Kingdom fills the whole earth like the great mountain range foretold by the prophet Daniel (2:35). Isaiah foresaw this day as well when he wrote in Isaiah 2:2-4,


2 Now it will come about that in the last days, the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains [i.e., nations], and will be raised above the hills; and all the nations will stream to it. 3And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us concerning His ways, and that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war.

[Dave in Tenn]

"Kings and Lords" are not the totality of the Kingdom of God.  "Ruling with Him" is pointless if there are none to "rule".  Of course, the "rulership" of the elect is of quite a different sort than what man calls and considers ruling.  Isn't the purpose of the Kingdom the salvation/healing/deliverance of all?  I'm not sure at all that these two "concepts" are completely separate.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that they are not. 

I might "use":

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 
1Co 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

But these verses all by themselves don't cover everything.  The harvest festivals of Israel are also foretelling these things.




I have made a commitment not to talk "theology" with anybody who can't answer this simple question correctly (or chooses not to look it up).  WHY DID JESUS TEACH IN PARABLES?  If they don't know (or can't be bothered to find out from Scripture) then no "explanation" I might give stands a chance of being understood. 

Mark chapter 4 and Rev 17:8  The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the submerged chaos, and to be going away into destruction. And marvel shall those dwelling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, when they observe the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present."

Concerning "election".

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me (even though they left their nets and professions to follow Him), but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

Zec 4:6  Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.




 

 
    

[Musterseed]

I will take a stab at your question Dave of why Did Jesus only speakers in parables.

I am inspired to use this scripture.

For this people's heart is grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear and their eyes
they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears AND TURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.     caps are mine. 

Ok my brother , I put forth an answer to your question and now I am interested in your explanation
even if my answer is not correct. 😁

I am certainly open to learning more and more about Our Awesome God.

In Christ,,,, Pamela

[Dave in Tenn]

Pamela, I wasn't talking about not discussing with YOU specifically.  You asked how you might go about "explaining" the election to someone else (or words to that effect), so I was answering that "asking this question" is a part of how I go about it.  If they give me a Sunday school answer that Jesus made things simple so everybody could understand, then I know they aren't likely ready for much else concerning the Kingdom.  To "you" it is given to understand, but to "them" it is not given.  Neither I nor you (nor they) can choose on our own which camp we will join.  HIS choice is beyond repentance and occurred from the foundation of the world.  But if it has been given, then the increase in some is 30 fold, some 60 fold, and some 100 fold.  And it happens without our notice that it is happening.  We notice when it is done happening.  Jesus is Lord. 

 

[Musterseed]

Thank you Dave .I was doing a study on Mark 4:12. I thought the

Emphasis was on (lest they turn and be forgiven, )anyhoo, This is a whole other study I'm
working on.

the scripture Mark 4:12 led me to many more on E-sword.

Deut.29:4, Jer.5:21, Jer. 5:26-31.12:2, Rom.11:8, 2 Co. 3:14, 2 Co 4:4, and Isaiah 42: 19-25

And the story goes on and on. Sorry for the misunderstanding Dave. Actually it is Octoberose
who asked the question about the Elect. 😂.  First the fabled free will has to go and only God
can do it and yes it happens, much of it, without our notice. Thank God for His mercy. Praise Jesus.

God Bless All of you 💕

In Christ ,, Pamela

[Dave in Tenn]

...Actually it is Octoberose
who asked the question about the Elect. 😂. 

Apologies to you both.  I've been losing the plot a lot lately.

[octoberose]

I appreciate the thoughtful responses.  As God usually does ( just like with those parables ) He doesn't make this easy to see. I think I  would never have seen it if someone ( starting with Ray ) hadn't shown me.
  I'll look up all the verses you suggested Pamela .
   I'm confused about this thing though . If the elect of God are with God, learning and growing for '1000 ' years , isn't everyone else experiencing the second death and not on earth during that time? Or, does that come after ? I know I should know this but I have a hard time keeping it straight .

[Wanda]

I'm confused about this thing though . If the elect of God are with God, learning and growing for '1000 ' years , isn't everyone else experiencing the second death and not on earth during that time?

Octoberose, if this were true, who are these enemies Jesus must rule over until he puts them under his feet, in verse 25?  We know God's elect are not his enemies.

1 Corienthians 15

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I see this as an ongoing process, for those living at the return of our Lord. They will be learning the righteous ways of God without the  interference of Satan, because he will be removed to keep him from deceiving the nations, as Rev. 20: tells us.

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven,having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan,and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

We have no idea how long that 1000 year represents, but it does culminate with the White Throne Judgment at the 2nd resurrection. REV 20: 11-15  if you read all of Rev 20 as well as Rev. 21 it might give you more insight.

[Musterseed]

Hi Octoberose

A good read for the subject the second death is Hades and the Second Death, hell series Part E

THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGEMENT AND JUDGEMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

caps are Rays. I always pay extra attention to Ray's caps. 😃 God Bless You

In Christ
Pamela

[ralph]

It is not something you can show people if God hasn't prepared their hearts to receive it.  Lord knows I have tried.  As of now, the entire Orthodox Christian and Catholic church and Jews for that matter, believe they have been chosen even though the scriptures clearly teach that many are called but FEW are chosen.

I believe that God makes it known to you when he has chosen you out of the world to bear fruit.   He shows you where you came from.  He shows you what you are and what he is saving you from. As he brings you through various storms and trials you feel different as part of your old self dies.  He opens your understanding. Your changing and growing.  It's a long process and he doesn't keep you in the dark.  You can't make people see that if they haven't experienced it.   But this doesn't mean you are necessarily God's elect.

I believe the Elect of God are not the chosen but those who are called, chosen and FAITHFUL who endure to the end:

Revelation 17:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

[Dave in Tenn]

To be "elect" is to be "chosen".  They mean the same thing.  Chosen for what?

That word "faithful" in Rev. 17:14 has two connotations.  Objectively, being trustworthy.  Subjectively, having faith.

This passage goes with that verse, I think.

Joh 6:60  Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61  When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64  But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Joh 6:71  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

[octoberose]

I love those verses in John. I say that to a Him a lot , even when reality is quite hard - where else would I go ?