> General Discussions
What do u think are some of the hardest questions 2 answer related to our faith?
Extol:
Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
This is a hard question. This verse seems to conflict with the sovereignty of God. In the story of Job (and elsewhere) God is portrayed as one who is framing the evil (cf. Jer. 18:11); but here it sounds like He is "blaming" His people for coming up with new evils all on their own; almost as if He didn't know it was coming. Obviously He did know, but why then did it happen? I remember Ray used this verse as one of many proofs that God does not punish with real fire in hell. Men burn each other with fire, but it didn't enter God's heart to do it. So how does this line up with His sovereignty?
This is a specific verse, but the more general question is: Why do things have to so bad? Couldn't we learn plenty of virtues just with the daily trials we have? Sickness, aging, traffic, annoying coworkers...those things can teach us patience, humility, and love, can't they? So why do kids have to be burned alive? Why must men be so cruel, inflicting unspeakable tortures on others?
We know our Lord suffered as much as any man in history--and as Ray pointed out, He chose that horrible death to show us that He loves us--but it still doesn't really answer the question. He could have made it so humanity (and He) didn't have to suffer that badly. I ask this on behalf of others who have suffered greatly; personally I have had an exceedingly easy and good life. It's easy for me to say "It will all turn out good in the end", but I suspect the victims of horrors didn't see it that way.
"Why suffering?" is a relatively easy question. (As C.S. Lewis and others have pointed out, it's actually an argument for God's existence.)
The hard question is "Why suffering to such a degree?"
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Extol on February 21, 2020, 10:07:23 PM ---Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
This is a hard question. This verse seems to conflict with the sovereignty of God. In the story of Job (and elsewhere) God is portrayed as one who is framing the evil (cf. Jer. 18:11); but here it sounds like He is "blaming" His people for coming up with new evils all on their own; almost as if He didn't know it was coming. Obviously He did know, but why then did it happen? I remember Ray used this verse as one of many proofs that God does not punish with real fire in hell. Men burn each other with fire, but it didn't enter God's heart to do it. So how does this line up with His sovereignty?
This is a specific verse, but the more general question is: Why do things have to so bad? Couldn't we learn plenty of virtues just with the daily trials we have? Sickness, aging, traffic, annoying coworkers...those things can teach us patience, humility, and love, can't they? So why do kids have to be burned alive? Why must men be so cruel, inflicting unspeakable tortures on others?
We know our Lord suffered as much as any man in history--and as Ray pointed out, He chose that horrible death to show us that He loves us--but it still doesn't really answer the question. He could have made it so humanity (and He) didn't have to suffer that badly. I ask this on behalf of others who have suffered greatly; personally I have had an exceedingly easy and good life. It's easy for me to say "It will all turn out good in the end", but I suspect the victims of horrors didn't see it that way.
"Why suffering?" is a relatively easy question. (As C.S. Lewis and others have pointed out, it's actually an argument for God's existence.)
The hard question is "Why suffering to such a degree?"
--- End quote ---
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind[/color] (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
He commanded not. He spoke it not (so that it might be taken as a command). It did not come into His creative and purposeful mind, desire, feeling, etc.) from the beginning. Men did it, in opposition to His commandments, His words, and His very plans for us.
In other words, it wasn't that MAN doing this thing never entered His MIND/HEART. That is was a surprise and unexpected. It's that this THING never entered His Mind/Heart/Purpose/Plan. Everybody resists His will. Nobody resists His purpose.
Maybe that's why things must sometimes be so bad. The greater contrast with His ultimate wishes, desires, and plans for His creation. Paul also suffered, and he contrasted it with the "abundance of the revelations". I don't take that to mean "the boatloads of doctrinal insights". God is Love.
I can't say this glibly. I know very well that this "may not be enough" to explain the full depths of wickedness and general evil to someone today observing or enduring. But by faith I believe one day it will. That makes it easier to "endure", but I will admit, not so much easier to "observe", especially in ones to whom He has not given faith. .
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: indianabob on February 21, 2020, 01:53:52 PM ---
2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
--- End quote ---
He needed to believe on the name of the Son of God. How do you do that?
Then, he needed to die and be raised from the dead. He's only "half-way" there, at best.
Nelson Boils:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on February 22, 2020, 07:29:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: indianabob on February 21, 2020, 01:53:52 PM ---
2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
--- End quote ---
He needed to believe on the name of the Son of God. How do you do that?
Then, he needed to die and be raised from the dead. He's only "half-way" there, at best.
--- End quote ---
Matthew 19:16 "And behold, someone approached and said to him, “Good Teacher, what good should I do, so that I may have eternal life?”
Wanda:
Indeed Jesse, why such a horrible degree of suffering to learn from?
Considering what Bob said about the responsibility parents have for their children's suffering because of the choices they make. I'm reminded of a recent tragedy involving a six year old little girl, who went missing from her own front yard. She was out playing alone unsupervised for quiet some time before her mother missed her. Unfortunately the story didn't have a happy ending.
Was God using this terrible evil to humble this little one, I think not. What purpose did something so horrible serve? Some would say God needed another angel in heaven, which only causes others to blame God for allowing such evil to touch this innocent one, and cause her family such a torturous pain. Not knowing God and his plan for mankind is the problem.
By comparison Jesse, you have suffered minamally because of your parents choices, and I suffered more because of my parents choices. Did I need to suffer so harshly to learn humility though? Until you asked this question I believed it was neccessary to humble me. Now I'm not so sure. Looking back, I was rather meek and humble prior to many of those harsh experiences. Afterwards I felt distant from God and questioned how he could call himself a God of love. I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with learning to trust and rely on him in spite of my harsh experiences, caused by the choises of others.
People have always suffered at the hands/actions of others, the bible is full of such accounts, and so is our world. It just proves what God himself says about man.
Genesis 6
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth,and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
And again after the flood
Genesis 8
21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Destroying man does not get rid of his inclination for evil, that's why God has a full proof plan that will.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version