> General Discussions
Another Possible Example of Where Proper Translation Meets Science
Dave in Tenn:
Nshaw, be careful with accusations that people who's understanding differs from yours don't believe the scripture. The bible is a big books, and truth leans heavily on other truth. And be careful accusing them of being blind parrots. Other people in this thread have also posted scripture, but may not experience the same exasperation you've expressed when you don't see what they see. It is the glory of kings to search these things out.
Moderator hat on:
It's fine if you disagree with Ray on the teaching that there were people before Adam. I'd add only that your use of the phrase "other Adams" is not what Ray (or any other poster in this thtead, unless I've missed something) said. To be honest, I also have disagreement though mine does not match yours. Neither of us are allowed to press the point, and I try to give space to other people who also don't press their point. Pressing the point comes awfully close to "teaching", even when we are certain we are right. Maybe even especially then.
Dennis Vogel:
You make good points but please consider everything.
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And also first of the living? Eve is the mother of the living which implies the living started with her. Strong's says 'living' can mean "literally or figuratively."
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.
Yes, this is where sin entered into the world. And it makes my point right here: "and death by sin" - The 'dead' and 'sinners' are sometimes synonymous and interchanged at times.
1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Who is the 'everyone' and the 'they' that would slay Cain? His mother and father? Who would God take vengeance on sevenfold? Adam and Eve? There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Where did Cain's wife come from? It's not his sister because we have the generations of Adam as you point out.
I don't doubt that you are sincere and have your beliefs. But you have to consider everything.
I don't pretend to understand all of this and I still have questions, but we have to take everything into consideration.
The scriptures do not contradict. It just appears they do at times. We are both attempting to 'rightly divide the word of truth.'
If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.
But at the end of the day this topic does not mean a whole lot to me. It's more of a topic of interest. It does not move the ball forward that much, if at all.
nshan:
Alright, but to be fair I did not call anyone a blind parrot. I asked if they were brick walls, parrots, or humans. I used sarcasm to assume everyone was a person here. Which they are.
Heidi you stated earlier:
--- Quote ---"There were certainly other living beings before Adam was breathed life into. The difference is that from Adam onwards, we follow Christs ancestry."
--- End quote ---
And now you state
--- Quote ---"I believe that Adam was first formed and then Eve."
--- End quote ---
Out of all the humans of the Earth which is it? This is what I mean by contradiction. You can't believe both Adam being first formed and not. If by first formed you mean "well, not really at all or ever" then okay fine.
Dennis, I am taking everything into consideration. In Genesis chapter 4 Cain and Abel's births are emphasized. I highly doubt they were Adam and Eve's only children. It was much later until Adam had a child of his likeness: Seth. If Genesis included every last detail, and was purely chronological, it wouldn't make any sense as some details are re-stated multiple times. Many books do the same thing as some authors hide details or want their readers to figure things out themselves usually with big hints. I assume you know this. Also, Moses said that after his death the children of Israel would utterly corrupt themselves (Deut. 31:29) They barely found the book regarding the law years later ( 2 Ki 22:8 ). I will let you think about what that means. Genesis was written for the children of Israel (in the flesh and now in the spirit) but if you can't even believe the flesh...
Who do you think the sons of God are? Who do you think those people are? Acts 17:28. Do you realize how many years Adam and his children lived? Do you also realize that Adam's lineage is emphasized up to Noah but not all of his descendants?
From Ray in Why God Loves You:
`Luke's gospel traces Jesus' genealogy through His mother Mary's father. Does that genealogy end with Adam and Eve? No it doesn't. Let's read it:
"Which was the son of Enos [Enoch], which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son OF GOD!"
Likewise, ALL of our genealogies will take us back through our parents, grand parents, great grandparents, etc., etc., until we come to our Truly GREAT Father, not Adam, but GOD! WE ARE ALL OF THE RACE OF GOD!`
--- Quote ---"There was no one except his mother and father at that time according to the church."
--- End quote ---
What does the above even prove? The church also believes King David was a king. Will you now believe that King David was never a king?
Also Dennis first you say for 1Co 15:22:
--- Quote ---1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
All this is saying is we all die (all sin?) just like Adam. It does not say Adam was the first human.
--- End quote ---
Then all of a sudden scripture says:
1Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Then all of a sudden, oh boy, God has a DAY (now don't go crazy on me, I know it's not TWENTY FOUR HOURS) in which he creates man and called him ADAM:
Gen 5:1-2 - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them and blessed them, and called their name Adam in the day they were created.
Your thoughts do not line up with what the scriptures even state. You say death by sin, yes but this was passed on from who? Adam. Are we all in Adam or not? The scriptures are not contradicting at all nor does it even appear that way.
--- Quote ---1Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Perhaps 'death' and 'alive' also have dual meanings here?
--- End quote ---
You are right, and...?
Dave, I don't disagree with Ray's earlier writings in Why God Loves You as to our origin which matches the scripture. I use the term "other Adams" to emphasize the belief of those previous to Adam so that we are not all in Adam.
--- Quote ---If you can biblically explain where the 'everyone', 'they', etc. came from then I'll take another look. But for now it makes more sense to me that the 'dead' and the 'living' can sometimes be figures of speech and not always literal.
--- End quote ---
I showed you scripture that explains exactly where humankind came from and you don't even humor it. We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28, from who?
If you want I will stop discussing this as now I realize not in all is this knowledge. But this is still just crazy to me. If you fear men and want to believe in whatever the wisdom of this world believes in about our origin that's fine, but at least be honest and not mix it up with what the scriptures actually say about who and what we are and will be.
Dave in Tenn:
Thank you for acknowledging our humanity. That goes a long way. ;D
Maybe Heidi can say that Adam was formed first and then Eve without contradicting because Paul is rightly dividing the word to write about the relationship of husband and wife, and not rehashing the creation account. Adam was formed before Eve. End.
I won't cover all your points, and surely Heidi can express her thoughts better than I can. You do continue to assume that your reading and understanding of Scripture is scripture and others are unbelievers...human, but unlearned unbelievers. Water off a duck's back to me, but others might be more sensitive. ;D
I doubt you'd find a soul here who doesn't recognize all humanity as offspring of God. If there are, they are in serious disagreement.
Like all geneologies, the bible geneologies don't list every branch, and they are written after the fact.
He is the Father of us all, no matter what else.
Maybe, when I have time and can word it carefully I'll take you up on that challenge. We'll see.
octoberose:
The thing about talking on this venue is that we can't hear each others tone or get answers immediately. It is wonderful technology, but it has its limits.
I understand , I believe, where nshan is coming from. I've pondered this over the years, and I also am not peaceful about some of the things Ray has said about early man. I wish as much as you do that he was still here to continue the conversation and to continue his knowledge and share that with us, but God did not give us more time .
If you don't mind, I have a few observations and a few questions.
- genealogy's in scripture are not like Ancestry.com. They only show you the principal players- those that went from Adam to Abraham, and those that went from Abraham to Christ. Everyone else, and almost all women, are left out. So, there's a lot we can't know.
- according to the early Jewish historian Josephus, Adam and Eve were the parents of 33 sons and 23 daughters. No, not scripture but Josephus is a usually a reliable source and that's a lot of people.
There is no reason to think that there were only four people on the earth at the time Cain kills Able. In fact, what are the chances that two people who are as healthy as people have ever been in the history of the world would only have two children until those children were adults? We know that Adam lives 930 years and has many sons and daughters so I think it's likely that they had other children at the time of the first murder.
- I didn't know that the question of who did Cain marry was a part of the Scopes trial and when Clearance Darrow asked William Jennings Bryan who did Cain marry, Bryan could not answer. I just don't want to be on the side of Darrow.
- it was something like 400 years later that God put an end to close relatives marrying each other- which tells me they were doing it before that. Of course their DNA was not compromised the way it became - the further we get away from God's perfection in the garden the more compromised we are.
- I do wonder why God says there was no one to tend the soil, so he then makes Adam. Well, it's a curious thing to say if there was no one else around ( and we know agriculture came later in human history) Ray brings this up and I think it's curious and I don't have a good answer for it. Could He have been referring to the animals or heavenly beings ? Maybe.
- I have never understood a question of Eve being the mother of all living. Of course she's not Adams mother any more than Adam is her father. She came out of Adam. It's a relationship like no other and I don't think that disqualifies her from being the mother of all living beings ( but not living animals or plants, obviously ). Isn't this how language works ? I am the mother in my family, but I am not my husbands mother ( as I have told him repeatedly !) :)
- if death came from one man, and there were other people on the earth, did they not die ? For how long did they not die ?
- and lastly, why this matters- 1 Peter 3:15 " Always be ready to given an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." This is a public ( not totally public but it's pretty public ) forum- people look for answers here and what we write can harm or it can help. It can enlighten or harden hearts, as God wills.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version