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Obeying Civil Authorities
Dave in Tenn:
Here's a little food for thought. Do you take Paul's admonition to obey magistrates as being from God? Kinda puts a little more spin on that admonition to obey God rather than men (who often insist we should resist obeying magistrates). Welcome to the new Covenant.
I reckon sometimes the choice is easy, and sometimes it's hard. We're going to die regardless.
loveroftruth:
Thanks Dave, Indeed, food for thought... :P I will be chewing on this today ;D
Indeed,... and then we die...(bit it's all good!!) With the Lord on our side, no one can separate us from HIS love :)
have a blessed day.
Lightshedder23:
Hello bible-truths,
I really like this discussion on Romans 13.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Peter says the same:
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
I read Rays post in this thread about how we need to resist the devil, but we are still subject to the higher powers. Tribute to whom tribute, custom to whom custom. Even Jesus said give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods. This is all pretty easy to follow to this point. Even the commandment that we ought to obey God rather than man is pretty straightforward for me. Seeing if you know what Gods commandments are, and you wish to obey them, than it can be easy to discern God over man.
To add a little more to this you can consider Peter again:
1Pe 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
This is summed up well by Peter here in 1Peter 3:17:
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
What I feel is confusing about this is what Paul and Peter say in these next verses:
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Even Peter says the same thing as Paul again:
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
If we do that which is good we will have praise of the same? Governors are sent by God for the praise of them that do well?
I cannot make any sense what Paul and Peter are saying here. It is almost as they are considering magistrates to be impeccable in their judgments and authority, that if we follow God over men that we will have praise of Government.
I hate to say this because when I come across a verse I do not understand I always look within, but I find it hard to believe that Paul or Peter really believed these principles to be true based on the rest of the bible and the contentions they and Jesus had with authority. It just does not make any sense to me or harmonize at all.
If anyone who has a grasp on this can comment I would love to here what you folks have to say.
Dave in Tenn:
I think this verse fits in here:
Galatians 5:22,23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
See it? There is no law against these things.
And to what do they contrast?
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Seems to me, having the fruit of the Spirit, in most circumstances, makes one a pretty model member of society. Striving to live peaceably as much as possible with all men. We're not called to ostentatious religiosity...same as in Ecclesiastes (that most un-christian of OT books).
Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common. And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it.
Paul here begins with his conflict with the Judaizers, but I think he uses that "lesson" to teach a deeper faith about Law in general....even laws that aren't in the bible.
Maybe there are and have been exceptions in History, but even in the worst of times and in the worst of cultures, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.
Lightshedder23:
Hi Dave,
Yes, I see what you mean. Thank you. I think I have got a hold on this one now. There is no law against obeying God or living in the spirit towards your neighbor. We have to live in the spirit towards the higher powers as well and the purposes for what God is accomplishing through them.
As far as harmonizing being in subjection to the higher powers and obeying God rather than men. One would have to ask if any government decree is therefore against God seeing the powers that be are ordained of God.
As you say:
"Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common. And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it."
This comment seems to be the issue here and gave me a little more clarity on the topic.
The government is getting more "ungodly" as human morality is degenerating. So God is allowing them to degenerate also as a punishment on wrong behavior. If humanity exercised a consciousness of morality than we would have a government that praised and promoted the same.
As far as those of us that do the good in the middle of all this, if God so will, we will suffer for doing well, which is noted of God, but we are not ignorant of what or why evil-doers are being punished by the government and losing freedoms.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The word and plan of God are always two-fold and those that do good may get caught in the middle of this storm and suffer for righteousness but we are not ignorant of God's will for us and towards them in His purpose of allowing all this.
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