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Author Topic: Obeying Civil Authorities  (Read 990 times)

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greenef

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Obeying Civil Authorities
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:11:57 PM »

Hi All
Did Ray write anything on this subject? I have yet to find anything on it, please help!
Thanks,
Frank
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nshan

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 06:55:57 PM »

Hey here's one email I found + verses:
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4645.msg35676.html#msg35676

Acts 5:29 - Obey God rather than men   [in the email above]
Romans 13 - Submission to authorities

I believe there are a few more emails or stuff in the Lake of Fire series but I can't find them now
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I hope these help someone :
Rev 1:3, Rev 22:7, Rev 5:4, Rev 5:5, Rev 5:13
Luke 13:15-16

Luke 9:54-56
John 10:7-8

Rocco

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 10:02:05 PM »

I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit over the last few weeks with all the negative and harmful consequences of this lockdown, especially with what appears to be ever changing and conflicting actions we should take and the double standards applied to certain businesses. As everyone who wants to follow the Lord I have to check my natural instinct and prayerfully seek the Lords command on this or any issue. I read Romans 13 but still not clear ( or satisfied ) on when or how civil disobedience might be appropriate, then today it came to me how my emotions especially anger were directing my thoughts as I see the economic devastation. I believe the spirit of Christ reminded me of Joseph. Joseph with his pregnant wife Mary could have said to heck with that pagan foreign ruler Cesar Augustus I'm not traveling to Bethlehem for his stupid census, and we could still be waiting for a Messiah to this day. 
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indianabob

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 11:37:15 PM »

I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit over the last few weeks with all the negative and harmful consequences of this lockdown, especially with what appears to be ever changing and conflicting actions we should take and the double standards applied to certain businesses. As everyone who wants to follow the Lord I have to check my natural instinct and prayerfully seek the Lords command on this or any issue. I read Romans 13 but still not clear ( or satisfied ) on when or how civil disobedience might be appropriate, then today it came to me how my emotions especially anger were directing my thoughts as I see the economic devastation. I believe the spirit of Christ reminded me of Joseph. Joseph with his pregnant wife Mary could have said to heck with that pagan foreign ruler Cesar Augustus I'm not traveling to Bethlehem for his stupid census, and we could still be waiting for a Messiah to this day.



Hi Rocco,
That is an interesting view of how Joseph may have felt personally about the risk for himself and Mary...but God had already set the time and date of Jesus' appearance on the earth and Joseph had no choice about it any more than Mary had a choice to be the mother of Jesus.
I suppose that we should follow the same approach and let God lead us rather than wondering if we can handle the tasks that God has in mind for each of us.

Regarding the virus and other similar events that are yet to come, have you noticed that the whole nation just obeyed the edict to shut down and remain in their homes? Not even questioning where their next meal would come from. Blindly obeying the talking heads on the main stream media.

I'm reminded of a passage that says "they will be marrying and giving in marriage" and that may apply here. The people of all the world's nation are mainly sheep being led by their respective governments and they just follow along with their lives according to habit and into the pit wherever they are directed. So when the beast power takes control in Jerusalem it seems to me that the great majority will just go along to get along, not knowing what is about to happen until it happens.
=
Only true believers will even recognize the end time events for what they are. Most will treat it like another natural catastrophe.

Just my personal view, Indiana Bob
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octoberose

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2020, 01:04:14 AM »

 Thank you Indiana for that reply. 
 I struggle with all of this too but like you all  I'm reminded that fear and anger are not the response of Godly people.  But then I struggle-  what is wisdom in this situation ?
 In the U.S. ( note to self "this is not political " it is just history) the government is made by and for the people.   So, what then is our responsibility ? Is it to vote and shut-up?  Is it to be  a rational voice?  I'm certain it is not to yell and protest and throw things and say hateful things.  But having a rational discourse about science and rights seems like something we can do.  Well, this is all of God and it's very hard for me to think this is not what Christ spoke about , MAT.24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
MAT.24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
  It certainly feels like that to me. 



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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 04:58:25 AM »

Watch this five minute video: https://youtu.be/DALXJvHxMjs

Which ever side you are on realize that the other side believes just as strongly as you that they are right (and you are wrong).
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Rocco

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2020, 06:09:20 AM »

 Joseph had a humble and obedient attitude to do what was a command of government, certainly being in Bethlehem at the exact time was ordained of the Father and was fulfilled. There certainly was a lot of resentment of Rome at that time and I would have been tempted to find every excuse not to go, kind of like trying to get out of jury duty. I believe that child like faith is trusting and obeying our Father and can be snuffed out by the cares of the world.  My point I guess is this; when we react in a way that feels right it could be wrong and we might even find ourselves resisting God and even praying for things that oppose what God has ordained. I do feel at this time that I will refuse any vaccine or forced medical procedure because I no longer trust the intentions of these so called experts and authorities to do anything to this temple of God. But other than that i'll submit  and if punished for it so be it. We are called sheep and sometimes sheep get slaughtered.

 Rom 8:35

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 Rom 8:36

As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 06:19:32 AM »

"In those days there was no king in Israel and every man did what was right in his own eyes.". Appealing?  Or appalling?

How about just par for the course?

I believe this sword He weilds--sharper than a two-edged sword, able to spiritually cut asunder--is dividing this world of humanity much more sharply and accurately than simply us against them.  Two men can be doing the same thing--one is taken, the other left.  We have zero control over our motivations, and they are the things that make many of the same actions "right" for one man and wicked for another despite appearances of sameness.  No man can follow Him except the Father drag him.  And many who had been following, on hearing this, followed Him no more.  I reckon it's still happening, though many just return to their pews.

Nobody has a genuine choice in their ultimate calling.  Nobody can change themselves by themselves.  Nobody can "help it".  Everybody does what is right in their own eyes.  Everybody serves somebody.  Nobody is free.  Jesus is Lord.

Some are disturbed by commercial media, but think nothing of gluing themselves to bloodless algorithms on social media designed to feed bias and keep them "engaged" even if it means directing them to more and more extreme versions of their preferred "truth".  Gaurd your minds...and use them.


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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lareli

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 04:49:39 PM »

Who are the authorities though? The ‘authorities’ seem just as divided as the people at this moment in society.. Presidents, Governors, Mayors, Police Chiefs.. they all seem to be picking one side over the other and they do not agree. I suppose we will have to consult the spirit within us in order to know what to obey and disobey.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 07:36:03 PM by lareli »
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Rocco

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2020, 02:47:05 AM »

 Lareli, that's a good point  Who to obey or disobey when government leaders seem confused and to disagree. Here in California our Governor  is a little less extreme than Oregon or Washington but more extreme than Texas or Georgia. However we have Mayors and Sheriffs here that state that they will not enforce some of the Governors edicts even to point where one town city council has declared itself a "sanctuary city" for small businesses to do whatever they want to do.   I personally will try and obey or a least respect the local leaders as far as wearing a mask, keeping 6ft apart when asked to do so, kind of a "When in Rome" approach. I realize too that its not my small business that I have to watch go up in flames, I really feel bad for these people and my natural instinct is to want to lock arms with them and protest at the state capitol which is only about 3 miles away from my home. I'm still working at 50% schedule with unemployment benefits making up the rest. The state and Fed benefits are so generous that I'm already seeing where some people are not wanting to return to work even when their job is available again. Some senators warned about this but they were shut down and I'm sure called heartless. Lots of questions and complicated issues we are facing and I think as Christians we need to discuss how to respond or at least what to think scripturally on these issues. The first Christians had to decide on circumcision in a very heated debate about a huge issue. I agree with you and I know that the Spirit will show us what we should do but maybe it will be at a time when its absolutely necessary to know like in the following verse
Mat 10:19

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.


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Rocco

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2020, 03:04:50 AM »

One other note. I'm only 90 miles away from San Francisco and they have announced that the 50th anniversary Gay Pride parade has been cancelled. That along with all the bars, strip clubs, casinos, stadiums, concert halls, theaters, libraries with the "Drag Queen Story Time" have been shut down.

Not to sound blasphemous, but I can imagine The Lord singing the chorus from  that Toby Kieth song
" How do you Like me Now" !!

However I won't forget this

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things?


“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

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greenef

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 04:28:28 PM »

Thanks everyone for your response to my question. This will be very helpful.
Have a great day all!
Frank
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Porter

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 07:03:53 PM »

Found this from Ray to add to the discussion.

https://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
Satan did not gain and acquire all the kingdoms of this world as personal possessions against the purpose and intention of God his very Creator! What greater power and authority could there possibly be than to be the possessor of "ALL the kingdom of the world," and to be the very "god OF THIS WORLD?" Is all this power and might just "allowed" by God or rather is it not purposefully ORDAINED of God?

    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power BUT OF GOD: THE POWERS THAT BE ARE ORDAINED OF GOD"
    (Rom. 13:1).

There is an important distinction to be made between [1] the "god of this world"-Satan/ kosmokrator- world ruler-who is Satan (II Cor. 4:4/Eph. 6:12), and [2] the civil "powers" and "rulers" which are called "magistrates" in the Greek, who make laws that govern and suppress some of the evil in the world. Both the "world ruler/god of this world" AND the "powers and magistrates" are "ordained [Gk: 'appointed'] " OF God, but one we are to "be subject to" but the other we are to "resist."

    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers ['governing authorities'] ..." (Rom. 13:1)

BUT:

    " Resist the Devil, and he will flee from you"  (James 4:7).

This is a most important point, and our own Lord has given us the perfect example of how we are to "resist the Devil," but, "be subject unto the higher powers:"

    "Then said Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan [Jesus 'resisted' the Devil] : for it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve. Then the devil LEAVES HIM..."  (Matt. 4:10-11).

Though Jesus resisted the Devil, He was then "subject to the higher powers" for the rest of His ministry:

    "And they that had laid hold on Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the high priest..."  (Matt. 26:57).

    "Then said Pilate unto Him, speak you not unto me? Know you not that I have power to crucify you, and have power to release you? Jesus answered, You could have no power at all against me except it was given you from above; therefore he that delivered Me unto you has the greater power"  (John 19:10-11).

But above all:

    "We ought to obey GOD rather than MEN."
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greenef

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2020, 01:49:32 PM »

Thanks Porter, this is very helpful!
Frank
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loveroftruth

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2020, 03:51:04 PM »

WOW!!! What a blessing all of you who have posted in this thread have been to me today! :)… This is my first thread on BT, since I just returned,  having been away for 5 long years, but THANK YOU for your input here, as the info in this thread has been answers to my prayers and food for my soul.  I can't afford to ever leave this forum ever again!   ::) Ugh! I have missed you all so much!

Greenef: Great Question/thread!

Porter, well said! 
This is a most important point, and our own Lord has given us the perfect example of how we are to "resist the Devil," but, "be subject unto the higher powers:"

Rocco, I LOVE IT:
"Not to sound blasphemous, but I can imagine The Lord singing the chorus from  that Toby Kieth song
" How do you Like me Now" !!" (You mad me laugh out loud and you brought a tear to my eyes, thanks, I needed that humor!) ;D ;D

Lareli: Great Point...Perhaps Ask for wisdom and discernment? -\ )

Dave in Tenn: Excellent discernment! thank you!

Nshan: Thank you for the quick reference, muchly appreciated, as it saves me time. :D


Dennis: Thank you for taking the time to send the video; spot on!

Octoberose: I feel you sister!  I do believe that these ARE the beginning of sorrows that we are currently living in... :(

IndianaBob: Amen brother! Now that is so true, but very heavy!! (we might be sheep led to the slaughter; only true believers will recognize the end time events...


My/Susan's/Loveroftruths input:
(just like the opinion of Rocco...) We are to obey God rather than man, and the worst case scenario is that can happen is that HE might ask us to be lambs led to the slaughter, and we must be ready and willing... Hopefully though, it won't come to that. We are HIS vessel for HIS will to be worked through, and we must humbly accept whatever does come our way.

As a Gulf War veteran, I did what I had taken an oath to do, which was to go to war if it came down to that ... but I did not want to do that, as it conflicted in my "love everyone" beliefs; however, I went as a combat nurse, where I was able to heal rather than take lives.... I would not have had the chance and been able to be a vessel for God to work through me in order to study the Word with some of my fellow soldiers and they came to HIM in repentance and obedience, had I not gone there... (so, good can come out of being obedient when we don't want to be in uncomfortable situations  ... but, good things do not always come about either...) :-\

blessings,
Susan





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Susan (Lover of truth)

Our mission in life is to learn how to love everyone. :)

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2020, 05:22:19 AM »

Here's a little food for thought.  Do you take Paul's admonition to obey magistrates as being from God?  Kinda puts a little more spin on that admonition to obey God rather than men (who often insist we should resist obeying magistrates).  Welcome to the new Covenant.

I reckon sometimes the choice is easy, and sometimes it's hard.  We're going to die regardless.
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loveroftruth

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2020, 11:21:01 AM »

Thanks Dave, Indeed, food for thought... :P  I will be chewing on this today  ;D

Indeed,... and then we die...(bit it's all good!!)  With the Lord on our side, no one can separate us from HIS love :)

have a blessed day.
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Susan (Lover of truth)

Our mission in life is to learn how to love everyone. :)

Lightshedder23

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2020, 11:30:06 AM »

Hello bible-truths,

I really like this discussion on Romans 13.

Rom 13:1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Peter says the same:

1Pe 2:13  Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

I read Rays post in this thread about how we need to resist the devil, but we are still subject to the higher powers. Tribute to whom tribute, custom to whom custom. Even Jesus said give unto Caesar what is Caesars and give unto God what is Gods. This is all pretty easy to follow to this point. Even the commandment that we ought to obey God rather than man is pretty straightforward for me. Seeing if you know what Gods commandments are, and you wish to obey them, than it can be easy to discern God over man.

To add a little more to this you can consider Peter again:

1Pe 2:19  For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
1Pe 2:20  For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
1Pe 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

This is summed up well by Peter here in 1Peter 3:17:

1Pe 3:17  For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


What I feel is confusing about this is what Paul and Peter say in these next verses:

Rom 13:3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Even Peter says the same thing as Paul again:

1Pe 2:14  Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:15  For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


If we do that which is good we will have praise of the same? Governors are sent by God for the praise of them that do well?

I cannot make any sense what Paul and Peter are saying here. It is almost as they are considering magistrates to be impeccable in their judgments and authority, that if we follow God over men that we will have praise of Government.

I hate to say this because when I come across a verse I do not understand I always look within, but I find it hard to believe that Paul or Peter really believed these principles to be true based on the rest of the bible and the contentions they and Jesus had with authority. It just does not make any sense to me or harmonize at all.

If anyone who has a grasp on this can comment I would love to here what you folks have to say.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2020, 01:53:47 PM »

I think this verse fits in here:

Galatians 5:22,23  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

See it?  There is no law against these things.

And to what do they contrast?



19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Seems to me, having the fruit of the Spirit, in most circumstances, makes one a pretty model member of society.  Striving to live peaceably as much as possible with all men.  We're not called to ostentatious religiosity...same as in Ecclesiastes (that most un-christian of OT books). 

Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common.  And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it. 

Paul here begins with his conflict with the Judaizers, but I think he uses that "lesson" to teach a deeper faith about Law in general....even laws that aren't in the bible.

Maybe there are and have been exceptions in History, but even in the worst of times  and in the worst of cultures, there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit.



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Lightshedder23

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Re: Obeying Civil Authorities
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2020, 03:55:39 PM »

Hi Dave,

Yes, I see what you mean. Thank you. I think I have got a hold on this one now. There is no law against obeying God or living in the spirit towards your neighbor. We have to live in the spirit towards the higher powers as well and the purposes for what God is accomplishing through them.

As far as harmonizing being in subjection to the higher powers and obeying God rather than men. One would have to ask if any government decree is therefore against God seeing the powers that be are ordained of God.

As you say:

"Seems to me, in most circumstances, that those doing the works of the flesh are NOT so honorable and praise-worthy, even if their deeds are legal and common.  And I think pretty much EVERYBODY understands this, even if they cannot live it."

This comment seems to be the issue here and gave me a little more clarity on the topic.

The government is getting more "ungodly" as human morality is degenerating. So God is allowing them to degenerate also as a punishment on wrong behavior. If humanity exercised a consciousness of morality than we would have a government that praised and promoted the same.

As far as those of us that do the good in the middle of all this, if God so will, we will suffer for doing well, which is noted of God, but we are not ignorant of what or why evil-doers are being punished by the government and losing freedoms.

Rom 13:4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

The word and plan of God are always two-fold and those that do good may get caught in the middle of this storm and suffer for righteousness but we are not ignorant of God's will for us and towards them in His purpose of allowing all this.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 04:02:50 PM by Lightshedder23 »
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