Resurrection

[AwesomeSavior]

We know that every day is resurrection day for the Elect, but the following article seemed appropriate for today. The blue hyperlinks are pictures from the article:

When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had cut in the rock. And he rolled a great stone to the entrance of the tomb and went away. – Matthew 27:57-60 (ESV)

Patterns...

Common to all definitions of "pattern" is the idea of repetition. A seamstress pins a paper pattern on cloth so she can repeat that pattern on the material she will make into a dress. A foundry worker packs a wooden pattern of a gear into special sand so the cavity left by the pattern can be filled with molten metal, thus repeating the pattern.

A pattern like the one pictured below uses repeated colored dots to form something larger which can be recognized, a "W" in this case. With patterns of this kind, the more dots there are, the clearer the "W" will be for those who can distinguish colors. The existence of the "W" becomes undeniable.

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/ishihara-test.png

As archaeological discoveries which affirm biblical accounts happen repeatedly, along with textual and even astronomy-related discoveries, these form something larger, just as the repeated dots become the "W". The pattern formed by the repetition of text-affirming discoveries tells a larger truth, that the Bible is true by its nature.

In this Thinker Update we take up what has been called the single-most-studied object in the world, The Shroud of Turin. Millions continue to believe it is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ.

The matter of patterns is most relevant to a discussion of the Shroud. Patterns of evidence discovered and undeniably present within the Shroud weigh heavily in favor of the claim that it is Jesus' burial cloth.

Absolute proof that the Shroud is genuine will not be established, because no chain of custody exists for the Shroud before the Middle Ages. But we live our lives without absolute proof of many things. We rely on the preponderance of evidence, and we make our decisions.

Researchers have discovered many individual patterns of evidence within the Shroud itself, and these form a larger pattern when taken together. Space considerations allow us to speak to some, though not all of them, here.

He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. – Acts 1:3 (ESV)

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/shroud-of-turin.jpg
(The Shroud of Turin, kept in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The Shroud presents an image of a crucified man in great detail).

The Patterns in Cloth...

The Shroud of Turin is made of fine linen, woven in a three-to-one herringbone pattern. The direction of the twist of the strands rules out Egypt as the country of origin and affirms Israel. The Shroud's length and width are in even cubits, a unit of measurement not used in medieval Europe where critics say the Shroud was faked, but in ancient Israel. The unusual weave reflects a wealthy owner, and Joseph of Arimathea was certainly that. (Matthew 27:57)

In 2002, conservation measures were taken secretly for the Shroud in Italy. With the 16th Century backing cloth removed from the Shroud for the first time, textile expert Mechthilde Flury-Lemberg discovered a rare type stitch on the back side of the Shroud which was known from only one other place, the Masada Fortress in Israel, which fell to the Romans in the Jewish revolt less than a generation from Jesus' time.

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/masada-fortress.jpg
(Masada, the fortress overlooking the Dead Sea which became the last stand for Jews in the First Jewish Revolt. Only here, from the time and place of Jesus, has another example been found of a rare stitch discovered on the back of the Shroud in 2002. (credit: Andrew Shiva, CC BY-SA 4.0 via Wikipedia)

The Pattern in the Image

The image on the Shroud of a man crucified is its greatest mystery. To this day, after exhaustive scientific study and numerous attempts to duplicate the figure of the man shown on it, no one has been able to do this at the microscopic level of the linen fibers. The image is on the outermost layers of those fibers as discolorations. They are microscopic pixels. The image is not painted, despite the continued claims of people who simply repeat this explanation over and against the verdict of the experts from the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP), and others before and since.

The only traces of paint are from duplicates of the Shroud that were pressed against the Shroud to sanctify the duplicates in earlier centuries. These are tiny flakes of paint. The linen fibers themselves show no trace of brush strokes, binder or pigment. Nothing has soaked in; nothing is present to soak in.

Only in very recent times have scientists found a way to discolor linen strands as they are found in the Shroud of Turin, discolorations penetrating only to a tiny fraction of the width of a human hair. It was done with microbursts from high energy lasers. A burst of high energy! This carries suggestions of its own about the man of the Shroud, because if it is Jesus, he is proclaimed to be raised from the dead. Is the Shroud a "snapshot of the resurrection?"

Anyone who has seen the actual Shroud, or a full-size, high detail reproduction of it, knows that the image of the crucified man is a negative, rather than a positive, image. How or why an alleged forger did that has no answers. But to recognize the image, one must be six or eight feet back from the Shroud. Any closer and the image on the cloth is lost. This fact further argues against a forger. How could such an image be created by someone working up close?

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/shroud-of-turin-replica.jpg

The Pattern of the Body and the Wounds

The proportions of the body are perfect according to artists like Dame Isabel Piczek. Wounds appear on the image which science has established to have been present on the cloth prior to the presence of the body image itself. If you will imagine hand-writing a message on a sheet of paper, but dotting the "i's", crossing the "t's", and inserting all the commas and periods before you wrote any words on the paper, you have an analogy to what an alleged forger must have done, putting blood on all the wounds before the wounds were located on the cloth. And the blood has been shown to be actual human blood, type AB.

Normally, blood becomes brown as it ages. The blood of the Shroud is red, which seems impossible if it is two thousand years old. This has been advanced as evidence of fakery. But blood chemists know of changes in the blood of persons under great stress or suffering, like a crucifixion victim. Bilirubin is a pigment that enters the blood with the breakdown of red cells. It causes blood to hold a red color. Did a forger use actual human blood, and torture his donor so the blood would remain red for centuries, then paint the blood on the linen cloth before there was an image, all in order to fool people centuries later?

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed. – Isaiah 53:4-5 (NIV)

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/roman-crucifixion.jpg
(Left: a reproduction of a Roman spear point. John's Gospel says a soldier drove his spear into Jesus' side to insure that he was dead on the cross. Blood and water exited from the wound (19:35). A corresponding chest wound with blood and clear fluid appears on the Shroud of Turin. The blood and water point to red cells separated from clear fluid within a chamber of the heart, meaning the heart had stopped beating. Right: an example of the scourge used on victims before they were crucified. The image on the Shroud of Turin shows marks corresponding to the lead balls of a scourge. They run the length of the body, front and back. (credit: photos by Dr. Fred Baltz)

Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. – John 20:6-7 (ESV)

The Patterns of Soil Content and Pollen

When soil traces from the foot region of the Shroud were analyzed for their composition with a scanning ion microprobe at Chicago's Enrico Fermi Institute, the graph of the results almost completely matched the graph read-out for the aragonite soil of Jerusalem. This was literally pattern matching pattern.

Pollen grains adhering to tape samples pressed against the Shroud indicated that the Shroud had been present in the Jerusalem area, then northern Syria, Anatolia, Constantinople, and Europe. This matched the pattern of travel hypothesized by Shroud students, based on ancient references to an Edessa Cloth which found its way to Constantinople, and then as a result of the Fourth Crusade, came to France. If the Shroud were just a fake, the presence of all the non-European pollens is inexplicable.

An Israeli botanist, Dr. Avinoam Danin of Hebrew University, Jerusalem, asserted that he had found patterns of flowers on the cloth—flowers that bloom in Jerusalem in the Spring. Professor Danin had no religious motivation to authenticate the Shroud.

The Pattern of the "Poker Holes"

In four places an "L"-shaped set of burns appears on the Shroud. These are damages from before the first known fire of 1532. The burns are often called the poker holes.

An illustrated book called the Hungarian Pray Manuscript is kept in Budapest. A painting of Jesus' burial that certainly seems to portray the Shroud is contained in that manuscript. Not only does the figure of Jesus match the Shroud's crucified man (hair, beard, arms crossed), but the herringbone weave is shown on the cloth. And there, too, are the poker holes.

The Pray Manuscript is dated to 1192. This poses a great problem for those who would dismiss the Shroud as a fake because of the Carbon 14 dating of the Shroud that happened in 1988. Many people stopped paying attention to the Shroud of Turin when they learned that the Carbon 14 determined possible dates for the Shroud were from 1260-1390.

Newspaper headlines said the Shroud was proved a fake. But the Hungarian Pray Manuscript testifies to the Shroud, already in existence at least seventy years before the earliest possible Carbon 14 date.

There's more to be said about the Carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin, much more than we can cover here. But the samples tested all came from an edge. One of the STURP scientists, Raymond Rogers, wrote in a peer-reviewed article before his death that the weave of the edge from which the sample was taken showed anomalies. The material there was cotton, not linen, and it had been colored with agents to match the rest of the Shroud.

The conclusion drawn by many since that time is: the Shroud was repaired on its frayed edge. To restore the pattern of the cloth, colored cotton threads were invisibly woven into the cloth. Since these were younger than the rest of the Shroud, they gave a reading from the Middle Ages. Now three other tests for the age of ancient textiles all indicate that the Shroud of Turin is not a product of the Middle Ages, but much older.

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/hungarian-pray-manuscript.jpg
(From the Hungarian Pray Manuscript. The image of Jesus in the upper illustration corresponds to the appearance of the man on the Shroud. In the lower illustration the herringbone pattern of the cloth is clearly apparent, and something matching the poker holes seen on the Shroud are present within the red circle. The Pray Manuscript is securely dated to seventy years before the earliest possible date for the Shroud given by the Carbon 14 dating done in 1988. That is one of several indicators that the Carbon 14 dates are incorrect. (credit: public domain)

The Evidence Against

Shroud skeptics bring forth what evidence they can muster against the Shroud, and there isn't much. Basically, only two challenges merit consideration.

One of these is the D'Arcis Memoranda, written in the Middle Ages by Bishop Pierre D'Arcis, who claimed the Shroud being displayed then was a "cunningly painted" fraud.

The other is the Carbon 14 testing from 1988. We have only introduced the problems with those C14 tests; there are more. As for the Bishop, he was either wrong or dishonest. There is no trace of paint on the Shroud forming the image.

Returning to Patterns

When I once photographed a copy of the Shroud of Turin, my camera recognized the face, and imposed a red square around it in the viewfinder. The face stands out, and not only to the camera. The man on the Shroud has had the life beaten out of him, the blood drained away from him, and the breath suffocated from him.

But despite all that, his face manifests a serenity. The man of the Shroud seems to have been in charge, unconquered throughout the torture he endured. He looks like a person who has faithfully completed a most difficult and deadly mission. He looks like a man who knows his story isn't over. He looks like Jesus Christ. Jesus, after all, is the one whom Christians have claimed for centuries to have fit the patterns of the prophetic words of the Old Testament.

After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. – Isaiah 53:11 (NIV)

https://patternsofevidence.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/shroud-of-turin-detail.jpg
(Left: This is the face from the Shroud. This photograph was taken in 1931 by Giuseppe Enrie. In 1898, Secondo Pia had become the first to photograph the Shroud. Both men discovered that their negative plate produced an image which was a positive (Right). Notice that there is no outline to the image. (public domain)

Conclusion

There are so many "dots" arising from the study of the Shroud of Turin. That they form a pattern is difficult to deny. No one should place all their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus on this cloth alone. But as Norm Geisler said when he titled his book: "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist", it takes a dogmatic faith in skepticism, against the great preponderance of evidence, to dismiss the Shroud of Turin.

The Shroud of Turin becomes one "dot" in a still-larger set of "dots" which form a pattern telling us the entire Bible is to be trusted, Old Testament and New Testament. Believing is not foolish, but reasonable. Believers do not sin against common sense. Multiple patterns of evidence direct us to the truth, and that's more reason to keep thinking.

[Wendy]

  Very interesting .thx for sharing.

[AwesomeSavior]

You're welcome.

[Dennis Vogel]

I don't have the will to read all AwesomeSavior's post but a quick Google search finds many articles proving the Shroud of Turin is fake:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-shroud/new-forensic-tests-suggest-shroud-of-turin-is-fake-idUSKBN1K81NF



1Co 11:14  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

This man clearly has long hair.

Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 

[indianabob]

Yes thanks for the detailed explanation of the evidence.
It is helpful to see the whole picture and consider carefully.

Please be aware also that Satan has miraculous abilities to inspire/create artifacts
that may be misleading to scientist of all faiths.

And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14

I think also that we are to worship in spirit rather than with or toward idols or other artifacts.

Joh 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 
Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 
Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[ZekeSr]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but Dennis is right. The shroud is a fake. It is simply the crown jewel of the Babylonian Catholic church's endless parade of questionable relics.

Mike

[AwesomeSavior]

For the record, I wrote to the organization who published the original article on the shroud, asking them for comment regarding the Reuters article from Dennis.

They directed me to a main website whereby I located a paper done by a forensic physician familiar with hematological events.

However, I will withhold publishing it, seeing that people have already made up their minds.

Interestingly though, one of the authors of that 2018 BPA skeptic paper (Luigi Garlaschelli) is a researcher who consistently brags that he is funded by an atheist group in Italy.

[indianabob]

Hi Awesome,

I do not wish to seem argumentative or appear that I know better than anyone else.
So the following comment is just for comparison and to stimulate our thinking.
"atheist or people who seem not to believe in God are often more reasonable and logical than religious people.
At least they question what they are told by religious experts, pastors, theologist etc. while most "church" people just accept what ever they are taught and don't question or even check the scriptures. They seem to be saying "my minister is a kind and serving person and I trust him/her and they would never lie to me". That is how people get misled and that is why many thinking people do not believe in god, because they have never heard the truth.

Please take my comments with a grain of salt, I wish only to provoke thinking and deeper study.
Indiana Bob

[Anjel Uriel]

When I first came out of the Catholic Church and started researching Protestantism (only lasted like 1 maybe 2 months before I discovered The Truth); that's when I discovered The Shroud. I believed with certainty that it was authentic due to a video where a man spent around 1 to 2 hours explaining it, citing things like the blood, pollen found from plants in Jerusalem, etc. But, then I learned from God through Ray that "it is a shame for a man to have long hair" (1 Corinthians 11:14). Then, suddenly, I started to doubt the validity of The Shroud since it depicts a man with long hair and even though we know The Lord does not judge by appearance but by the condition of the heart (1 Samuel 16:7) and does not judge according to the flesh (John 8:15); nonetheless I don't believe He has long hair or otherwise why would Paul condemn it? Wouldn't that go directly against The Lord and by implication be accusing Him of something shameful?

From what I know the only men that had long hair in Israel were Nazirites and we know Jesus wasn't one due to the fact He drank wine and nazarites are not to drink it (Numbers 6:3). I'm not completely sure why men are not to have long hair but I believe is because long hair is supposed to be a covering for women and it's for her glory (1 Corinthians 11:15), it's the sign she's under authority because of the angels (1 Corinthians 11:10). We men have the glory of being the head of the household (1 Corinthians 11:3) and therefore have the privilege and duty to represent Christ (1 Corinthians 11:7). A man having long hair would be trying to usurp and steal a gift God intended for women. Just as women are not to have authority over men (1 Timothy 2:12) since that's the gift God gave to men. I'm not saying this as a teaching but what I gathered from Scriptures.

So, I don't believe The Lord would have long hair and then inspire Paul to tells to have it short. Also long hair has the danger of looking feminine and we men must not be effeminate or we won't inherit The Kingdom of Our Father (1 Corinthians 6:9) and we are to abstain from all appearances and forms of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) so I don't believe The Lord would have long hair for these reasons. Now, I'm not 100% ruling out the idea the Shroud could be real, who knows maybe we one day we find out that The Lord did have long hair and Paul was speaking in a way we right now don't understand but I think we must be careful to not get divided over these things, we are admonished to love one another and keep united (Ephesians 4:2-3) and there's already enough division among The World, the last thing we need is for us brothers and sisters to be divided over a relict.

[ZekeSr]

There is a great desire to grasp onto something tangible... and I understand that. But quite frankly, I believe that Dennis destroyed the whole concept of the shroud with that single verse. Also, one only need to investigate the way the Jews of the day wore their hair and beards to see that this man of the shroud is not a Jew, but the usual incorrect depiction that we see even up to this day.
We live by faith not by objects, so I'm going to use sarcasm that I really don't mean to be offensive with but find necessary to drive home the point. If God needs relics to bolster our faith and provide tangible proof of His existence, then what are we doing on this site? Instead, we all need to become Catholics, because that is where the "proof" of the true church is: 

The Seamless Robe of Christ
The Holy Robe, Holy Tunic, Holy Coat of Thieves, and Holy Coat of TrierThe Holy Tunic of Christ is said to have been worn by Jesus during or shortly before his Crucifixion. It is preserved at the Cathedral of Trier in Germany. In the Gospel of John, the soldiers cast lots on who would receive the tunic because it was woven in one single piece. Hence the name, the Seamless Robe.

The Holy Lance
he Holy Lance (also known as the Spear of Destiny, Holy Spear, Lance of Longinus, Spear of Longinus or Spear of Christ) is the name given to the lance that pierced Jesus' side as he hung on the cross in John's account of the Crucifixion.

Crown of Thorns
Saint John tells that Roman soldiers mocked Christ and his Sovereignty by placing a thorny crown on his head (John 19:12). The crown housed in the Paris cathedral is a circle of canes bundled together and held by gold threads. The thorns were attached to this braided circle, which measures 21 centimeters in diameter. The thorns were divided up over the centuries by the Byzantine emperors and the Kings of France. There are seventy, all of the same type, which have been confirmed as the original thorns.

The True Cross
Pieces of the purported True Cross, including the half of the INRI inscription tablet, are preserved at the ancient basilica Santa Croce in Gerusalemme in Rome. Very small pieces or particles of the True Cross are reportedly preserved in hundreds of other churches in Europe and inside crucifixes.

The Shroud of Turin
The Catholic Church has neither formally endorsed or rejected the shroud, but in 1958 Pope Pius XII approved of the image in association with the Roman Catholic devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus.

Iron Crown of Lombardy
It is kept in the Cathedral of Monza, in the suburbs of Milan. The Iron Crown is so called from a narrow band of iron about one centimeter (three-eighths of an inch) within it, said to be beaten out of one of the nails used at the crucifixion.


Veil of Veronica
The Veil of Veronica, which according to legend was used to wipe the sweat from Jesus' brow as he carried the cross is also said to bear the likeness of the Face of Christ. Today, several images claim to be the Veil of Veronica. There is an image kept in Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome which purports to be the same Veronica as was revered in the Middle Ages.

The Mandylion
The Image of Edessa, as known as the Mandylion, was allegedly sent by Jesus himself to King Abgar V of Edessa to cure him of leprosy, with a letter declining an invitation to visit the king.

Here are another 165 "lesser" relics. The order of the numbers are mixed as I didn't feel it necessary to take the time.
1 Agnes of Rome 59 James the Great, Apostle 117 Nicholas of Myra (i.e., Santa Claus)
2 Alphonsis Liguori 60 James the Less, Apostle (12Ap) 118 Oliver Plunket
3 André Bessette of Montreal 61 Jane Frances de Chantal 119 Padre Pio
4 Andrew, Apostle (12Ap) 62 Januarius 120 Patrick
5 Angela Foligno 63 Jean Brébeuf (North American Martyr) 121 Paul, Apostle
6 Anna Maria Taigi (Bl.) 64 Jean de Lalande (North American Martyr) 122 Paul Miki
7 Anne, Mother of the Blessed Virgin 65 Jean-Théophane Vénard 123 Paul of the Cross
8 Anthony Padua 66 Jerome 124 Peregrine
9 Anthony the Abbott 67 Joan of Arc 125 Peter, Apostle
10 Apollonia 68 John, Apostle 126 Peter Chrysologus
11 Athanasius 69 John Berchmans 127 Peter Damian
12 Augustine 70 John Bosco 128 Philip, Apostle (12Ap)
13 Benedict 71 John Neumann 129 Philomena
14 Bartholomew, Apostle (12Ap) 72 John of the Cross 130 Pier Giorgio Frassati (Bl.)
15 Bartolo Longo (Bl.) 73 John Paul II (Pope) 131 Pius V (Pope)
16 Bernadette of Lourdes 74 John the Baptist 132 Pius X (Pope)
17 Bernard of Clairvaux 75 John Vianney (Cure D'Ars) 133 Polycarp
18 Blaise 76 John XXIII (Pope) 134 René Goupil (North American Martyr)
19 Carlo Acutis (Bl.) 77 Josaphata Hordashevska (Bl.) 135 Rose of Lima
20 Catherine Labouré 78 Josemaria Escriva 136 Rita of Cascia
21 Catherine of Siena 79 Joseph Cupertino 137 Sebastian
22 Cecilia 80 Joseph, Spouse of the Virgin Mary 138 Simon the Apostle (12Ap)
23 Charbel Makhlouf 81 Josaphat 139 Solanus Casey (Bl.)
24 Charles Borromeo 82 Josephine Bakita 140 Stanislaus Papczyński
25 Charles Garnier (North American Martyr) 83 Jude, Apostle 141 Stephen, King of Hungary
26 Charles Lwanga 84 Junipero Serra 142 Tarsykia Matskiv (Bl.)
27 Christina the Astonishing (Bl.) 85 Justin Martyr 143 Teresa of Avila
28 Clare of Assisi 86 Kateri Tekakwitha 144 Teresa of the Andes
29 Contardo Ferrini (Bl.) 87 Lawrence 145 Teresa of Calcutta, Mother
30 Cosmas 88 Lawrence of Brindisi 146 Thérèse of Lisieux
31 Crib of Our Lord 89 Leo the Great (Pope) 147 Thomas Beckett
32 Damian 90 Longinus 148 Thomas Aquinas
33 Damian of Molokai 91 Louis de Montfort 149 Thomas More
34 Dismas 92 Louis Martin (Father of St. Thérèse) 150 Thomas, Apostle (12Ap)
35 Dominic 93 Lucy 151 True Cross, Fragments of the
36 Dominic Savio 94 Luke the Evangelist 152 Unknown Bishop and Martyr
37 Dymphna 95 Malachy 153 Vincent de Paul
38 Edith Stein 96 Margaret Mary Alacoque 154 Zélie Guerin (Mother of St. Thérèse)
39 Elizabeth Ann Seton 97 Margaret of Castello (Bl.)
40 Faustina Kowalska 98 Margaret of Cortona
41 Frances Xavier Cabrini 99 Marguerite Bourgeoys The 11 Martyrs of Novogrudok:
42 Francis de Sales 100 Maria Goretti (all 11 Blesseds are contained in the same reliquary)
43 Francis of Assisi 101 Mark the Evangelist 155 Maria Stella (Bl.)
44 Francis Xavier 102 Martha 156 Anna Kukulowicz (Bl.)
45 Francis Xavier Seelos (Bl.) 103 Martin de Porres 157 Eleanor Juzwik (Bl.)
46 Gabriel Lalement (North American Martyr) 104 Martyrs of Gorkum 158 Eugenia Mackiewicz (Bl.)
47 Gabriel of the Sorrowful Mother 105 Mary Magdalene 159 Helena Cierpka (Bl.)
48 Gemma Galgani 106 Mary of Jesus Crucified 160 Jadwiga Zak (Bl.)
49 Gerard Majella 107 Mary of Jesus the Good Shepherd 161 Jozefa Chrobot (Bl.)
50 Gertrude the Great 108 Mary, Mother of God (portion of her Veil) 162 Julia Rapieg (Bl.)
51 Gianna Molla 109 Matthew, Apostle (12Ap) 163 Leokadia Matustzewska (Bl.)
52 Helen (Mother of Constantine) 110 Matthias, Apostle (12Ap) 164 Paulina Borowik (Bl.)
53 Holy Crown of Thorns, Fragment of the 111 Maurice the Legionary 165 Veronika Narmuntowicz (Bl.)
54 Holy Lance, Fragment of the 112 Maximilian Kolbe
55 Ignatius Loyola 113 Michael the Archangel (rock from apparition site)
56 Ignatius of Antioch 114 Michael J. McGivney (Bl.) LEGEND:
57 Irenaeus 115 Miriam Teresa Demjanovich (Bl.) Bl. = Blessed (i.e., not yet canonized)
58 James Kern 116 Monica 12Ap = This relic located in the reliquary containing the 12 Apostles and St. Paul.
Download the complete set of information cards (15 mb file): www.treasuresofthechurch.com/downloads 2

Mike

[Dennis Vogel]

As Bob said: "atheist or people who seem not to believe in God are often more reasonable and logical than religious people."

And as Ray has pointed out, people want and need things that are physical as proof:  https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw

[AwesomeSavior]

Anjel:

One of the more famous Nazarites from the Old Testament was Samson, who had 7 (nice Biblical number) locks of hair, upon which "there hath not come a razor upon my head (Judges 16:13,17). What happened when Delilah had one of her men shave off his 7 locks (H4253: also known as ringlets) of hair? "And he (Samson) wist not that the LORD was departed from him" (Judges 16:19-20). And of course it wouldn't be unusual for Nazarite men in the time of Jesus (and preceding) to have a problem wearing long hair, especially using the disastrous example of Samson in their lineage and in keeping with Numbers 6. Here is a question: What is the exact biblical definition of long hair? Ear length, shoulder length, rotator cuff length and beyond?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:14, if you look at the Greek word for "have long hair", it is komao (G2863), which simply defined does seems to offer the exact same explanation. That word, komao, is interesting. If you do the first root word search of it, it is kome (G2864), and Strongs' defines that word as having "ornamental" locks. In other words, something a woman might do to dress her hair up, if she is so inclined. Tresses can, by itself, simply means locks of hair, going back to the Samson example.

In conclusion, does God have a problem with a man wearing "long" hair (whatever length that represents), assuming he isn't trying to (in a nod to the Apostle Paul) make it "ornamental", and therefore making the man appear like a woman?

[Dennis Vogel]

Long Hair:

1 Corinthians 11:14
(RSVA)  Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him,

(CLV)  Is not yeven nature sitself teaching you that if a man, indeed, should have tresses, it is a dishonor to him,

(ESV)  Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him,

(KJV)  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

(NRSV)  Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him,

(Rotherham)  Doth not, even nature herself, teach you—that, if, a man, have long hair, it is a dishonour to him;

(RSV)  Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him,

(RV)  Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonour to him?

(YLT)  doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man indeed have long hair, a dishonour it is to him?

Strong's G2863
κομάω
komaō
kom-ah'-o
From G2864; to wear tresses of hair: - have long hair.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

The dictionary says tresses means: "long locks or curls of hair."

[AwesomeSavior]

Dennis:

Yes, I am aware that (G2863) means long hair, but the root which you mentioned (G2864), also means "locks, as ornamental" as defined by Strongs. That is my point.

Dean

[Dennis Vogel]

My point was 8 of the 9 above translations chose 'long hair' and not 'locks'. That's all.

Go here for about 50 translations that use 'long hair': https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Corinthians%2011:14

[AwesomeSavior]

If this passage were to mean strictly "long hair" only, with no other possibilities, then at what length is too long for any man?

Is there a chapter and verse which defines this forbidden length? Top of the ear, middle of the ear, bottom, etc?

Otherwise, that could easily lead into judging people for no real cause.

[Anjel Uriel]

Anjel:

One of the more famous Nazarites from the Old Testament was Samson, who had 7 (nice Biblical number) locks of hair, upon which "there hath not come a razor upon my head (Judges 16:13,17). What happened when Delilah had one of her men shave off his 7 locks (H4253: also known as ringlets) of hair? "And he (Samson) wist not that the LORD was departed from him" (Judges 16:19-20). And of course it wouldn't be unusual for Nazarite men in the time of Jesus (and preceding) to have a problem wearing long hair, especially using the disastrous example of Samson in their lineage and in keeping with Numbers 6. Here is a question: What is the exact biblical definition of long hair? Ear length, shoulder length, rotator cuff length and beyond?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:14, if you look at the Greek word for "have long hair", it is komao (G2863), which simply defined does seems to offer the exact same explanation. That word, komao, is interesting. If you do the first root word search of it, it is kome (G2864), and Strongs' defines that word as having "ornamental" locks. In other words, something a woman might do to dress her hair up, if she is so inclined. Tresses can, by itself, simply means locks of hair, going back to the Samson example.

In conclusion, does God have a problem with a man wearing "long" hair (whatever length that represents), assuming he isn't trying to (in a nod to the Apostle Paul) make it "ornamental", and therefore making the man appear like a woman?

Hi Dean, I believe that the thing with long hair is not so much the length but the intention and appearance it gives. I believe God would have a problem with a man that is using "long hair" to appear as a woman. I believe this is a case similar to Deuteronomy 22:5 where a man and a woman shouldn't wear what pertains to the other gender. However, we know that cultural norms change and in that time clothes men wore in those days would be considered dresses today and feminine. But, with God's Spirit we should be able to discern if a man or woman is wearing what pertains to the other just by looking at them. I believe this excerpt (email in bold) from a email to Ray gives a good explanation.

Perharps you have time to answer this question, concerning Deut 22:5 where the bible says a woman should not wear what pertain to man. in the society of today, most wears that women wear is PANTs (trouser) and relied on this time of grace.

COMMENT:  Centuries ago women wore long pants, and men wore the equivalent of dresses (kilts), and the like.
When you see a transvestite, you will know without being told, what wearing what pertains to a man or woman is.
Our Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, often wears pant suits, and she looks very feminine.


I believe long hair is the same. We might not be given an exact Scriptural length but we should be able to discern when it looks good and when in the words of Paul "looks shameful". Plus we should abstain from all acts and appearances of evil ( 1 Thessalonians 5:22) and even though we might grow out our hair with no intention of looking like a woman, it can give the wrong impression to other people. I speak of experience because I used to have long hair, shoulder length to be precise and even though I didn't grow it out because I wanted to make it ornamental it nonetheless had the unfortunate effect of making me look womanly and I know this because I straight got told "you look like a woman". Now, this could be because I naturally have a softer looking face and can't grow facial hair as well as having naturally curls but despite those things, when I cut my hair shorter, I didn't get those comments, even though I still have curls. Also, at the time I didn't know of that comment by Paul so I don't believe God holds it against me since I did it in ignorance and Paul said that "But if anyone wants to argue about this, I simply say that we have no other custom than this, and neither do God's other churches" (1 Corinthians 11:16).

I, personally, would like to grow out my hair again, however, I can not do it in good conscience and we know that if you betray your conscience you are sinning because all that is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23). So although I would like to do it, is not so important to me that I would go against my conscious.

Finally, I see this in a similar fashion to the food issue Paul mentioned. Just as the Kingdom is not eating and drinking (Romans 14:17), I don't think is about crew cuts and ringlets. Rather, we should focus more on becoming righteous and following on Jesus' footsteps.

[ZekeSr]

Concerning the shroud, a faked and venerated piece of cloth put on display by, and seated firmly in the hands of, faithless relic fondling Babylon, this is my last response to this thread as it is a waste of time. 
Pro 18:2  A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion. 

[ralph]

If this passage were to mean strictly "long hair" only, with no other possibilities, then at what length is too long for any man?

Is there a chapter and verse which defines this forbidden length? Top of the ear, middle of the ear, bottom, etc?

Otherwise, that could easily lead into judging people for no real cause.

I had a conversation with my wife shortly after reading this thread and said something very similar to what you mention here.

[Wendy]

Hope everyone is well ..
Was just wondering what are those numbers some of you put in your letters mean   (g2863.   G2864.    Ext .
Tks
God bless
Wendy