> Off Topic Discussions
Wrath vs. Judgement
Dynamo54:
I see that I did not proof myself very well.
The elect DO go through the end time tribulation….not the wrath of God.
Porter:
There is also the matter of little children that died or those that were conceived, but never born. My paraphrase, but Ray said that they would have a chance to grow up and experience sin. Wouldn't it be more “beneficial” if they were all raised up together? I dunno, just a thought.
I have put some thought into who exactly will experience of the wrath of God, but never thought of the when too much. Maybe we can infer a little something from this.
Rom 1:18 For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,
Rom 1:19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
How many that have known the truth (that have lived and died) have actually suppressed the truth in unrighteousness, so that God's name may be blasphemed in the world?
Rom 2:20 an instructor of the ignorant, a teacher of the immature, having in the law the full expression of knowledge and truth--
Rom 2:21 you then, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal"--do you steal?
Rom 2:22 You who say, "You must not commit adultery"--do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples?
Rom 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
Rom 2:24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.
All this (and a whole lot more) during the time of Paul's ministry. Because of our Shepard's, the unbelieving world thinks God is a weak crackpot. Will they escape the wrath of God because they are dead at “Christ's return”? I would be surprised if they did escape.
Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately sin (read: Rom. 2:20-24) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.
I think the question of God's wrath being symbolic or literal is a good one. I do know for sure, that it is nothing like the Church describes and teaches, whatever the wrath of God may be.
The sermon on the Mount of Olives is not only for you, but it will happen to you, if you are Christs. The end, the tribulation, the wars, and rumors of wars, earthquakes, and afflictions etc. are for you. Jesus only taught in parables, and the sermon on the mount is no different. It's easy to confuse the tribulation of the Elect with the wrath of God on the world. I know, I've done it before.
Dynamo54:
Appreciate the comments.
Where Romans 1:18 above talks of God’s wrath revealed from heaven….is that God’s anger at the unrighteousness and maybe not retribution (my word) wrath spoken of in Revelation at Christ’s return? The unfolding of God’s wrath in Revelation apparently lasts a long time and seems much more unique punishment for the godless at the end time where it is compared both to Noah’s time and Sodom (i.e., “as it was in the day of Noah…”). The memory (horror) of that time will surely carry over into white throne judgement time for those who live thru the end time. That terrible wrath from God (which is deserved) seems to be portrayed as a singular time.
Don’t know how, or even if that same vehement wrath will occur in the white throne judgement. We are told that judgement by fire in the white throne judgement is the same as the fiery trials and judgement that the elect go through now in preparation for finally being born of God. Hebrews 10:27 you cited above does talk about judgement and fury of fire…..but is that wrath.
Anyway, I think of this as I hope that I am elect and not just called, but as Ray said (paraphrasing) “Christ knows who is His and who is in Him, but we don’t!”
If I am not elect, then judgement at a later time without endtime wrath sure sounds better to me.
I guess I just have not found scriptures about “wrath” AFTER Christ returns.
Thanks
Porter:
Who are the “godless” if not the ones that are gods to themselves?
--- Quote from: Dynamo54 on May 28, 2022, 09:02:17 PM --- We are told that judgement by fire in the white throne judgement is the same as the fiery trials and judgement that the elect go through now in preparation for finally being born of God.
--- End quote ---
I've never heard that before, can you cite a source for it? It would help a lot. Ray did say the sequence not the severity of judgement for the Elect and the world is the same.
https://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
Maybe the Lake of Fire is the wrath of God.
Eze 22:20 Just as one gathers silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin into the furnace to blow fire on them and melt them, so I will gather you in My anger and wrath, put you inside, and melt you.
Eze 22:21 Yes, I will gather you together and blow on you with the fire of My fury, and you will be melted within the city.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
We can volunteer to judge ourselves now, or we can be judged with the rest of the world in the Lake of Fire later.
Mar 9:43 And, if thy hand shall cause thee to stumble, cut it off,—it is, seemly, for thee, maimed, to enter into life, rather than having, the two hands, to depart into the gehenna, into the fire that is not quenched;
Mar 9:45 And, if thy foot be causing thee to stumble, cut it off,—it is, seemly, for thee, to enter into life, lame, rather than having, the two feet, to be cast into the gehenna;
Mar 9:47 And, if thine eye be causing thee to stumble, thrust it out,—it is, seemly, for thee, one-eye, to enter into the kingdom of God, rather than having, two eyes, to be cast into gehenna,
Mar 9:48 Where, their worm, dieth not, and, the fire, is not quenched,
Mar 9:49 For, everyone, with fire, shall be salted.
Maybe this is what wrathful judgement means, and is “worse” than judgement through tribulation. Voluntarily remove yourself from the temple or throne of God, or God will do it forcefully with wrath later. Some may be more stubborn than others, and some it probably won't take much. God knows the right amount of heat to apply, I'm certain.
Thoughts?
Dynamo54:
Two things.
I was reading that passage from Ray just last night but not in the LoF paper, but in an answer Ray gave to a question about judgement. I like to go the list of question topics that Kat put together years ago. As you might guess, I was studying “wrath” and “judgement” and was trying to find what Ray had said about it. Small world.😀
As to a source on my comment…I was kind of paraphrasing where Ray said multiple times that the elect are tried in fire (now, as judgement has began in the house of the Lord) and the the non-elect are too tried in fire (Lake of Fire) at a later time (what I was referring to as the white throne judgement). All are tried in fire, so that is the basis of my comment that I may not have worded accurately.
The excerpt from LoF 16 you pasted in your comment…Ray said, “After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into judgement”. I have always understood that the dead enter judgement after resurrection, but had also thought that those that live on into the time when God’s government is established at the coming of Christ would start their judgement then while they alive. I guess I think that by going thru that and seeing Christ return and establishing His kingdom, they will have their eyes (heart) open as we have had ours opened. I just assumed that some (many?) would be converted at that time and therefore their second death would be as ours, baptized into Christ’s death.
I imagine we each have different thoughts about that time immediately after Christs return…at least as far as physical people still living.
On a side note. How did you copy my sentence to paste into your comment? I use an IPad and don’t know how to do that. I would like to so I don’t have to retype things from other’s posts when replying.
Thanks
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version