> General Discussions
Lake of Fire question
Laren:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on August 31, 2006, 02:46:47 AM ---
--- Quote from: Laren on August 27, 2006, 12:39:56 PM ---From my understanding from Ray's teachings, the carnal mind of non overcomers is destroyed/purged in the LOF.
Does the carnal mind at that time exist seperate from body (dust) + spirit?
Does body (dust) + spirit=soul (carnal mind) apply to only this physical life, but after the resurrection of the wicked, the mind can exist seperate from flesh body (dust)??
--- End quote ---
This tells you what happens to the carnal mind of man.
Rev 21: 1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea."
There was no more room for mans carnal mind, man's heaven and earth, for they had passed away in the Presence of God.
I hope that helps,
ALex :D
--- End quote ---
thanks. I believe the carnal mind will be destroyed, and for most in LOF, and I agree with your verse above.
I've been reading through old posts, and one that I read brought up the point re: the carnal mind and it's existence beyond the physical death.
I am trying to understand how the carnal mind exists beyond physical death, in order for it to be purged in a future age.
If we use the definition of soul (which I believe is the carnal mind), it is made of flesh (dust) and spirit. So after physical death, flesh returns to the ground, spirit returns to God, and carnal mind ceases to exist.
For the carnal mind to be alive again (it/we have to be resurrected), and since the LOF is not physical fire, the carnal mind must be able to survive without flesh, even though during our physical life it only was alive with flesh present????
orion77:
Hello Laren,
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
(Rom 8:2) For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
(Rom 8:3) For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
(Rom 8:4) so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
(Rom 8:5) For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6) For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
(Rom 8:7) because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
(Rom 8:8) And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
(Rom 8:9) But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
We are no longer in flesh, but in Spirit, yet we are still walking with a body and brain, but the flesh is dead. It is a state of mind, sin, the flesh which is enmity towards God, which being condemned while under the law cannot please God. The entire OT is full of how mankind cannot please God while under the law. Christ came to fullfill the law, and when His Spirit is in us, we are no longer under the law, but the law of the Spirit, which is love.
The carnal mind demands its own justice and desires condemnation and punishment. The mind of Christ desires righteous judment, mercy, forgiveness and love. A huge gulf between the two.
None of us can rid this carnal mind, until God begins to drag us, each in his own time, according to Gods good will and pleasure.
Not sure if this answers your question, but hope it helps.
God bless,
Gary
Kat:
I've just come across this in Ray's letter to James Kennedy.
This is not so much about the carnal mind,
but I thought it was relevant to this subject.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm
BODY
When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."
SPIRIT
When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.
SOUL
When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,
"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)
This is substantiated by the fact that:
"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).
Again:
" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).
Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
ˇ souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
ˇ souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
ˇ souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
ˇ souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
ˇ souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
ˇ souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
ˇ life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
ˇ souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
ˇ souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
ˇ none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
ˇ honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
ˇ even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
ˇ souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
ˇ souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
ˇ souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
ˇ and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).
Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
FROM KING JAMES TRANSLATION:
SPIRIT [pneuma]is translated LIFE in Rev. 13:5
SOUL [nephesh]is translated HEART in Prov. 23:7, etc
HEART [leb] is translated MIND in Prov. 21:27, I Sam. 9:20, etc.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated LIFE in Gen. 9:4, Lev. 17:11, etc
SOUL [nephesh] is translated GHOST in Job 11:2
SPIRIT [pneuma] is translated GHOST in Mark 1:8
SOUL [nephesh]is translated BEAST in Lev. 24:18.
BEAST [chay] is translated LIFE in Lev. 18:18.
SOUL [nephesh] is translated BODY in Lev. 21:11, Hag. 2:35, etc.
This kind of translating is not responsible scholarship-it's confusing and contradictory.
The Apostle Paul admonished Timothy to "have a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13) The Scriptures quoted above clearly show the translator's disregard for this instruction.
Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Not one Scripture says that man is "immortal" or has an "immortal" soul. Not one. "Our Lord, Jesus Christ: the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only has immortality" (I Tim. 6:14-16).
mercy, peace,and love
Kat
Laren:
Any thots here as to if the soul is the same thing as the carnal mind???
Kat:
Hi Laren,
When we become spiritual being in the resurrection,
we will have our same minds, which have been conformed to the mind of Christ.
But we will not have the fleshly (carnal) body, but a spiritual body.
So is there a soul without the body?
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Body and the breath/spirit of life and then you "become a living soul."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version