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Is Jesus Christ Eternal

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indianabob:
Anjel,
I like your comment copied below with one difference, perhaps in wording.
Father GOD the self existent one created Christ to be GOD's agent through whom GOD would create the rest of the celestial and terrestrial creation. All according to Father God's plan and beginning with the heavenly creation and then the earthly creation, each in the proper order. First the heaven of God and then the material Earth. Gen 1:1
This process was overseen by son God (eloheem H430) or Christ and his "devine" helpers.
Much more to consider but start with the following verses.
= =
► Jesus Christ existed before Abraham (John 8:58),
► He had a glory with the Father before the world
came to be (John 17:5)
► He would ascend to where He was formerly (John
6:62)
► All is created in Him, through Him and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
► He is the Firstborn of every creature (Colossians
1:15)
► Apart from Him not even one thing came into
being which has come into being (John 1:3)
► He made the eons (Hebrews 1:3)
► He emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave,
coming to be in the likeness of humanity (Philippians
2:7)



--- Quote from: Anjel Uriel on September 05, 2022, 02:52:17 PM ---I know The Father brought forth Christ and I always took it as that He gave birth to Him. There was a time when The Father alone existed and He then created Christ by bringing Him forth. Well, Iíve been seeing old posts of people here and Iím getting kinda confused. Basically, it seems some old posters basically believed in a form of Binitarianism, that is, Christ always existed with God The Father and itís co-eternal and that Christ canít be created because we worship Him. So is there Scriptures that prove Christ is always existed?

My point of view (which I made a whole post about where IndiBob and Dave responded) is this:

God The Father was always existed. He then decided to create a Divine Being that would be His Representative to Humanity, so He did this by begetting a Son and that Son is The Very First Creation of His Father. I saw things along the lines of ďHow can Christ be be created if Heís worshipped, Heís begotten of God not createdĒ.

But, arenít we also both created and begotten of God? We are created because thereís a time we didnít exist but we are begotten because God is our Father and lives in us and whatever someone does to us, they do it to God.

My reason for why Christ can be both created and still worshipped is because He represents His Father perfectly. For example, Christ will judge the world for how they treats us because whatever they do to us is the exact same as doing to Him, because we represent Him. Therefore, even though Christ was created, because Heís the very first creation and the begotten Son of God who represents Him perfectly, then He can be worshipped because worship to Christ is the same as worship to His Father.

Let me know what you all think cause Iíve been wrestling with this for the last week.

--- End quote ---

Dennis Vogel:
Ray has asked how Jesus learned about good and evil? - But we have no idea (yet).

Anjel Uriel:

--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on September 05, 2022, 05:15:01 PM ---Talking about The Father:

1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

--- End quote ---

Hi Dennis, I believed from that Scripture itís saying that only The Father is eternal because He only possess immortality and that Christ is not eternal because he died and while in the flesh He didnít possess immortality (although He does now) and therefore, Christ is not eternal because an eternal being canít die, correct?

Anjel Uriel:

--- Quote from: ralph on September 05, 2022, 05:54:50 PM ---"But, it means that Jesus is Special, Heís The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn."

I'm not so sure about that.  We read here:

Hebrews 5:8
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Now I don't fully understand this, so I am just thinking out loud here.   If Christ was perfect and one with the father as a flesh and blood human being, how could he then "learn obedience".  If he was perfect, what did he have to learn?  Does that not mean that he went through a process of learning "before" he emptied himself and became human? Was he always perfect like his father?  I'm not so sure about this.

--- End quote ---

Hi Ralph, I was talking about Jesus in His Life while in the flesh. Jesus couldnít have been disobedient or imperfect while a flesh and blood human being because that would be a sin and He never sinned. He already was One with His Father while on Earth, otherwise He wouldnít have been able to claim He was One with The Father (John 10:30), that He was in The Father (John 14:20), that He who sees Him sees The Father (John 14:9) and that He always does the things that please The Father (John 8:29).

But, we donít know if Jesus went through a process of chastisement, regeneration and learning obedience before coming to Earth. Iím inclined to believe, like it seems you suggested and Ray also did, that Jesus before coming to Earth and even before The Creation of the world, became The Son of God by learning obedience, we know He had glory before coming to Earth (John 17:5) but if Glory is something you get after experiencing Good and Evil and  travail, doesnít that mean He went trough that before the foundation of the world?   

So yes, I stand by my statement that Jesus is Special, Heís The Son who has never sinned, who was never disobedient, who was never adopted and reborn. But, this is all while in the flesh, we donít know for certain if there was a time before the creation and coming to Earth when He wasnít perfect.   

This is what Ray commented about how Jesus learning obedience.

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

I think He learned obedience before He was born and reduced down to a man and so on and so forth.  

John 17:5  ďAnd now, Father, glorify Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Ē

Now, we donít think about these things. Iím trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. ďglorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I hadÖĒ Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it?  What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? Iím all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, ďall power is given to Me of the Father.Ē Thatís where He got it.  

But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, youíve done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world... what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
  
Somebody ask the other day, Ďwhy is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesnít He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Well why doesnít He just make a whole bunch of Jesusí? We wouldnít have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesusí and then Heíll have all the sons He wants.  

We donít know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through?  It says;

Heb 5:8  ďthough He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;Ē  

ĎYea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.í Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it  But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on?  

Then Jesus Christ... we are going to see who and what He is. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, just as a human. How did He become the Son of God? Did God just say, Iím going to create a Son and whoosh...?

A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didnít He just create a whole bunch of Jesusí? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesusí then He would have all the sons He wants.'

octoberose:
Anjel, I enjoy listening to your thoughts.  Thank you for taking part in the forum.  I've been gone for a while and happy I tuned back in.
 I never thought that Ray or any of the moderators here said that Christ was eternal and that qualified him to be worshipped, or that he wasn't eternal and that disqualified him. .  On the contrary, Ray's writings shone a light on the relationship between God and his son that had been in plain view and I always just dismissed any questions I had.  My understanding from all the scripture in bible-truths is that Jesus was given his position by God, he didn't take it from God.  How could he be eternal if he was created by God and if he died on the cross ?  God ( actually, God is his title I believe , not his name) gave his title to his son just as any of you could pass on a title to your child.  Christ was given the spirit of his Father and without that he would not have been able to represent his Father . A Trinity, as Ray taught scripture to say, is a closed system but the family of God is open and will open to all of us.  We will be like Christ when the time comes. 
You said, "So this let us know  that in a way our sonship and Christís are different. If Iím not mistaken orthodoxy says that it means that Christ is eternally generated by God the Father. ".  I wouldn't put too much store on what orthodoxy says- they tend to get it wrong.  :) 

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