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Author Topic: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper  (Read 872 times)

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ralph

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Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« on: December 01, 2022, 11:26:29 AM »

Near the top of Ray's paper on the trinity (https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html), he states:

"Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."

I believe I understand what Ray is saying here, but wanted verification.  Thank you.

I wanted to add something.  The reason I bring this up is because I sent this paper to someone on social media who was having doubts about the Trinity doctrine. This person said the above statement of rays was incorrect and then he sited the following scripture as proof that the holy spirit is called God.

John 4:24
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Not that I think more about this, I believe what Ray is saying is that you won't find the statement "God, The Holy Spirit" in scripture.  I could be wrong which is why I wanted clarification.  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 02:26:30 PM by ralph »
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indianabob

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2022, 03:13:55 PM »

Near the top of Ray's paper on the trinity (https://bible-truths.com/trinity.html), he states:

"Four, the holy spirit is never called "God."

I believe I understand what Ray is saying here, but wanted verification.  Thank you.

I wanted to add something.  The reason I bring this up is because I sent this paper to someone on social media who was having doubts about the Trinity doctrine. This person said the above statement of rays was incorrect and then he sited the following scripture as proof that the holy spirit is called God.

Hi
John 4:24
24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Not that I think more about this, I believe what Ray is saying is that you won't find the statement "God, The Holy Spirit" in scripture.  I could be wrong which is why I wanted clarification.  Thanks again.
= =

Hi ralph,
Good question. I understand that Ray was explaining that the spirit of God is not a person of any description and certainly not part of a three
person god head. So that leaves only two real persons to debate about concerning who is a god or God. In my understanding that leaves God the Father from whom all things come and God the son through whom all things other than the Father come. (?) smile
=
So then we could say God is spirit or not seen and no one has ever seen God or ever heard a voice of God. God does manifest in the form of wind or fire or cloud but that is not God, it is a physical manifestation sent by God to get our attention or teach us a lesson.
=
The English word spirit is from the Hebrew ruach or the Greek pneuma, both of which mean breath or moving air or wind which has an effect in the earthly environment while yet being invisible so that we know of the "breath" only because of it's effect and not by seeing it manifested.

See Ezek 37:9
Jn 3:8
Jn 20:22
Acts 2:2
=
2Tim 3:16 = inspiration of God, breathing in of God's thoughts or spirit for our learning.
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ralph

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2022, 04:39:48 AM »

Thank you Bob.  I appreciate the response.  Much love bro.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2022, 06:41:24 AM »

Actually, of the three mentioned in the doctrine of the trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), there is only one who could be described as a person--the Son.  This Ray pointed out. 

Ralph, this is what Ray is talking about...the doctrine or teaching of the trinity.  Your friend may be having doubts about "the trinity", but his mind is still there.  Let's avoid turning the doctrine of a trinity into a doctrine of a duality.  We've not "demoted" a "person" at all.

GOD is SPIRIT.  He'll have to figure out what "Spirit" is on his own.   
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 06:47:57 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Musterseed

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2022, 11:07:30 AM »

2John 1:3… Grace be with you  ,mercy and peace from God the Father and from the
                  Lord Jesus Christ, THE SON OF THE FATHER.

Ray taught , Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father, the Supreme Deity. He was conceived
by the Holy Spirit of the Father ( God’s power) and therefore He is the Son of the Father.

Matt.1:18… Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as His mother Mary
Was espoused to Joseph , before they came together, she was found with Child of the Holy Ghost.
V20…. for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Amplified Bible….she was found to be with Child by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Contemporary English Version….. she was going to have a baby by God’s Holy Spirit.


But if the Holy Spirit is a person ( human flesh and blood) as taught by trinitarians, then
the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus and should be stated. IT IS NOT.

And one more thing ……. In all of Paul’s greetings in his epistles, not once does he acknowledge
the Holy Spirit.

In Christ , Pamela
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" No man can come to me,except the Father draw him"
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Musterseed

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2023, 05:38:43 PM »

Rom. 2:11…. For there is no respect of persons with God.KJV

Person…. A human being.

Christ is a man, (1 Tim 2:5-6) a human being, a person.

And if the Holy Spirit is a person , then this scripture says that God does not respect
either the person Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Does this scripture blow the trinity out the wazoo?

Please let me know if I am misinterpreting. I just noticed this yesterday.
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" No man can come to me,except the Father draw him"
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2023, 07:07:17 PM »

Rom. 2:11…. For there is no respect of persons with God.KJV

Person…. A human being.

Christ is a man, (1 Tim 2:5-6) a human being, a person.

And if the Holy Spirit is a person , then this scripture says that God does not respect
either the person Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Does this scripture blow the trinity out the wazoo?

Please let me know if I am misinterpreting. I just noticed this yesterday.

Three places where this phrase is used in the KJV:

2Ch_19:7  Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
Rom_2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
Col_3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.


And some alternate translations of Romans 2:11

(BBE)  For one man is not different from another before God.
(CEV)  God doesn't have any favorites!
(EMTV)  For there is no partiality with God.
(ESV)  For God shows no partiality.
(GW)  God does not play favorites.
(ISV)  because God does not show partiality.
(KJV)  For there is no respect of persons with God.
(LEB)  For there is no partiality with God.
(LSV)  For there is no favor by appearance with God,
(YLT)  For there is no acceptance of faces with God,


So you may be making a bit of a stretch.  "Respecting persons" is simply showing favoritism.  Here's a more complete passage.

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 
Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 
Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 
Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God. 


To use the word "person" in "describing" God is only important to Theologians.  "God in Three Persons!  Blessed Trinity!".  "Oh yeah?  Well, God is NOT three persons".  It's not a badge of honor or some kind of holy title.  It's just a word and has a meaning. 


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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Musterseed

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2023, 08:09:47 PM »

Awesome Dave , thank you.

I and my Father are one ,,,, not three.
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" No man can come to me,except the Father draw him"
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octoberose

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2023, 09:41:59 PM »

I do wonder though about God not showing favoritism.  Wouldn’t we think that God’s Elects are his ‘favorites’ ?  They are favored in a way no  one else is.   Yet it says God does not show favoritism.  I’m not sure how to understand this.
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Dynamo54

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Re: Question on Ray's Trinity Paper
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2023, 12:05:20 AM »

October rose, I believe that Ray said that God DID have favorites. He said that is what special, or peculiar people was saying. But Ray did go to some length in saying that God is not a respecter of persons. I understand that to mean that we are ALL held to the same standard…by that I mean God does not let one type/class of people (say kings, or rich, or wise, or ministers, etc.) get away with sinning. We all pay the same price for sinning. But Ray did say that God’s elect are His favorites. Just like the Apostle John was a favorite, and Jacob was a favorite over Esau.

As I have stated here in the past, while I don’t claim to be an elect, I am really hoping that one day I find myself in the Kingdom at the first resurrection and then I will KNOW  I was/am a favorite.

On last thing that Ray did say was that God will favor all people by admittance to the Elohim family. So everybody will be a favorite.

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